Do you have any Barbaric Imitations? How do you research them?

[Rand]

Two coins with known UK find spots (sale photos, due to small size cannot get good images)

 

Anastasius, tremissis (491-518). Frankish? Could it be minted by Franks in Kent?

Found near Dover, Kent, 2015. Ex Tony Abramson Collection. Spink, Auction 21000. 18/03/2021

https://emc.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/full-record/20150106

http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/pdfs/2016_BNJ_86_12.pdf

 

Anastasius, tremissis (491-518). Likely minted by Baduila (541-552) in Milan.

Found Romney Marsh, Kent, UK, 2018. TimeLine Auctions, Auction 144, Lot 8000 03/12/2022

https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/908451

Obverse die linked to a cast in the Institute of Numismatics and Monetary History, Vienna (from the estate Friedrich Stefan). Casoli A. Ein unpublizierter tremissis im namen des Anastasius I.: Probleme der Zuweisung TOYTO APECH TH XWPA : Festschrift für Wolfgang Hahn zum 70 Geburtstag / hrsg von  Wolfgang Szaivert … [et al] - Wien : Österreichische Forschungsgesellschaft für Numismatik, (Veröffentlichungen des Instituts für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte ; Bd 15); 2015: 77-85.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Rand

[Hrefn]

2 hours ago, Rand said:

Two coins with known UK find spots (sale photos, due to small size cannot get good images)

 

Anastasius, tremissis (491-518). Frankish? Could it be minted by Franks in Kent?

Found near Dover, Kent, 2015. Ex Tony Abramson Collection. Spink, Auction 21000. 18/03/2021

https://emc.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/full-record/20150106

http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/pdfs/2016_BNJ_86_12.pdf

I strongly suspect this first coin is Visigothic, from the pseudo-Imperial series on which the Victory gradually morphs into something resembling a grasshopper.  

[Rand]

Hmm. I feel this coin is unlikely to be Visigothic.

'Grasshopper' VPW were typical of Visigoths and Franks, but bizarre shapes during Anastasian reign were Frankish. The 'bizarre' Visigothic style evolved gradually and was characteristic of the following reigns, mostly later Justinian I - Justin II periods. Those later coins tend to have broader modules - this one is very small.

Visigoths and other 'barbarians' within the recent empire boundaries seemed to acknowledge the Anastasian supreme imperial authority (being independent de facto). 'Barbarian' leaders (including Clovis) struggled for titles and imperial recognition. Every Visigothic, Ostrogothiic, Burgundian, Gepiden (and Frankish, but this one) gold coin has DN (Dominus Noster) before 'Anastasius'. These coins were more like a franchise than imitations. It would be bold and scandalous to deny DN during this age. Visigoths were particularly not in the position after the Vouile battle when they left Toulouse. At this point, the style started to deteriorate until Theodoric took the matter into his hands, and many Visigothic coins of the end of Anastasian reign were some of the best styles.

Anastasian Visigothic series are rather well clustered. I have photos of ~400 Anastasian VPW tremisses - this is the only coin for the style when details are considered. 

Britain/Kent was outside the imperial universe after a series of Brexits and final Roman departure in 410. They needed no DN, except for putative foreign commercial reasons. Of course, this can be a coincidence that such a coin was found in Kent. 

I would be delighted to be pointed to any other die-linked coin or a coin of clearly the same style from the continent.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Rand

[Pellinore]

3 hours ago, Rand said:

 

Visigoths and other 'barbarians' within the recent empire boundaries seemed to acknowledge the Anastasian supreme imperial authority (being independent de facto). 'Barbarian' leaders (including Clovis) struggled for titles and imperial recognition. Every Visigothic, Ostrogothiic, Burgundian, Gepiden (and Frankish, but this one) gold coin has DN (Deum Nostrum) before 'Anastasius'. These coins were more like a franchise than imitations. It would be bold and scandalous to deny DN during this age. Visigoths were particularly not in the position after the Vouile battle when they left Toulouse. At this point, the style started to deteriorate until Theodoric took the matter into his hands, and many Visigothic coins of the end of Anastasian reign were some of the best styles.

 

Franchise, an interesting point! DN is Dominus Noster ('Our Lord') by the way, not Deum Nostrum. 

[Edessa]

I believe Vol X and XI from the Coin Hoards series published by the RNS are both "Coin Hoards from Roman Britain" volumes. As I recall, both have several plates of barbaric imitations found in hoards in Britain. Very interesting material, but the books are not in high demand, and you should be able to pick up copies for fairly cheap. 

[Rand]

DN is Dominus Noster ('Our Lord') by the way, not Deum Nostrum. 

7 hours ago, Pellinore said:

DN is Dominus Noster ('Our Lord') by the way, not Deum Nostrum. 

Oops. Thank you and corrected.

[Hrefn]

@Rand, I suspect you are more expert than I in this area.  I was reminded of this style of Visigothic tremissis, sold by Kuenker in spring 2016.  I could envision this as a model for your coin.  Which does not rule out your coin’s having been struck in Kent.  I attributed the small module to clipping, but I noticed on the Spink auction listing that it weighs a full 1.43 grams.  So probably not.  

Is omission of 
DN a strong discriminator of origin if the celators are illiterate?  Just as E Pluribus Unum is on US coins, but 99% of the population has no idea what it means, perhaps CONOB, DN, PPAUG were meaningless letters whose presence was just expected.  Anyway, highly interesting and intriguing coin.

Photo from Kuenker for educational purposes.  Also, not my coin.  

[Rand]

6 hours ago, Edessa said:

I believe Vol X and XI from the Coin Hoards series published by the RNS are both "Coin Hoards from Roman Britain" volumes.

Thank you. Will try - cannot find them on the RNS website.

I have

• Coin Hoards and Hoarding in Roman Britain AD 43 - c. 498 by Bland, R. Spink, 2018.
• Roman and Early Byzantine Gold Coins found in Britain and Ireland with an appendix of new finds from Gaul RNS Publication No. 46. London 2010.

I have been looking for years to find reports and detecting forums. The UK has excellent regulations; finds are reported, but some are later confined to local museums. PAS images can be better.

Excluding old finds without photos and known locations, there are 10 Anastasian coins found in British, mostly from Western mints. A few Visigothic coins, Burgundian (likely), Frankish (likely) and Imperial, but no other copies of the coin discussed.

Over the years, I tried to trace such finds globally and have records of 171 finds that included Anastasian gold, but many without images and/or long dispersed.

BN has put their Western mint coins online, a good representation, and the Dutch collection/find registry is online. Still, many local museums are not accessible and need exploring.

[maridvnvm]

I have developed a small collection of imitative FEL TEMP REPARATIO Galley types copying a variety of mints.

Aquileia

Lugdunum

Trier

[Pellinore]

Citing John Conduitt: "Magnentius. (...) the official coinage was so bad it often isn't even possible to tell the difference."

This yields very nice portraits of this not so nice emperor. Is this official or irregular? The texts are all readable, except for the first two letters in the exergue.

 

Magnentius, AE unofficial??, Lugdunum. Obv. Draped and cuirassed bust right. In the left field, a large A. Rev. Emperor on horse to the right threatening an enemy kneeling in front of horse. Is he begging for his life, or does he just stick up both his middle fingers? GLORIA ROMANORVM. In exergue: NPLC. All the texts are there, but they are just a bit rickety-barbarey. 22 mm, 3.30 gr.

And this one is also from that ilk:

 

Magnentius, unofficial? Lugdunum. Obv. draped and cuirassed bust right. In the left field, a large A. Rev. Two Victories carrying a shield VOT V MVLT (…). Under this, SV. In exergue, RSLC. ‘Another full-size imitation in good style -- just a bit too extreme. From the issue following the issue of the previous prototype /S V below the shield.  mintmark RSLG. Prototype:  RIC Lyon 126, page 186. Bastien 174. Bastien imitation XVIII.57 is very similar’ (Warren Esty). 20 mm, 4.30 gr.

[Rand]

4 hours ago, Hrefn said:

I was reminded of this style of Visigothic tremissis, sold by Kuenker in spring 2016.

Is omission of 
DN a strong discriminator of origin if the celators are illiterate?  Just as E Pluribus Unum is on US coins, but 99% of the population has no idea what it means, perhaps CONOB, DN, PPAUG were meaningless letters whose presence was just expected.  Anyway, highly interesting and intriguing coin.

 

Good point about the celators. Thank you, and I remember that auction. 

A couple of other typical Visigothic VPW tremisses from the recent Stack's Bowers & Ponterio January 2023 NYINC Auction. Sadly, the included old collector tickets did not help trace where the previous collector obtained them. These and others I handled feel different in hand, which is difficult to describe.

 

[Hrefn]

Appears the engraver of the second coin mistook the initial D of DN  ANASTASIUS for a portion of the emperor’s garment.  

[Rand]

4 hours ago, Hrefn said:

Appears the engraver of the second coin mistook the initial D of DN  ANASTASIUS for a portion of the emperor’s garment.  

As you mentioned, the celator likely influenced legends, but this does not seem typical of the DN part.

There are series that always use DN and those that always use ƆN. Among the 40+ coins of the second coin type - everyone has ƆN (e.g., another one I have).

 

 

Boule. Auction sale. 02/12/2016

 

Several other western mint series also used ƆN. I cannot determine whether this was an error copied across the series or intended. The same series can have very consistent the rest of the legends, or legends looking like they did not care.

 

Gorny & Mosch Giessener Münzhandlung. Auction 228. 09/03/2015.

Jean Elsen & ses Fils S.A. List 273 (July - September 2015).

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Rand

[Tejas]

On 3/25/2023 at 5:25 PM, Rand said:

Anastasius, tremissis (491-518). Frankish? Could it be minted by Franks in Kent?

Very interesting coin. I doubt that it was minted in Kent, though. The model for this coin was a Visigothic tremissis in the name of Anastasius (without the cross on the breast). Despite the findspot, I think this coin was minted in southern Gaul, either under Visigothic or (more likely) Frankish rule. 

[Rand]

Agree that likely Frankish and there is no other data to suggest it could be from Kent. Shall wait for more finds.

[Tejas]

I have 13 early Visigothic Tremissis, dating from the time of Euric to Athanagild. Here is an example in the name of Justin I.

The coin looks quite official, but note the reverse legend:

Obv.: DN IVSTINVS PP AVG

Rev.: VICTOP A VICTOSI

This coin was minted under Theoderic the Great, Amalaric or Theudis.

Tomasini JI1

Edited March 27, 2023 by Tejas

[Rand]

Wow. What a nice one! It continues a later Anastasian issue, likely linked to Theodoric's contra-offensive. Sadly the style deteriorated rapidly after his death. I am curious to what mint do you attribute it?

I am dying to see your Anastasian tremisses (and solidi).

Edited March 27, 2023 by Rand

[Tejas]

I'll open a new thread for Visigothic coins

[Prieure de Sion]

I have two Flavians Imitations from Domitianus...

 

Titus Flavius Domitianus as Imperator Caesar Domitianus Augustus
Subaratus Fourrée Denarius of the Roman Imperial Period after 84 AD; Material: Silver; Diameter: 19mm; Weight: 2.89g; Mint: Imitating the Rome mint; Reference: For prototype, cf. RIC II, Part 1 (second edition) Domitian 188; Provenance: Ex Leu Numismatic Winterthur Swiss

Obverse: Bust of Domitian, laureate and draped, left. The Inscription reads: IMP CAES DOMITIANVS AVG GERMANIC for Imperator Caesar Domitianus Augustus Germanicus (Imperator, Caesar, Domitian, Augustus, conqueror of the Germans); Reverse: Minerva standing left, holding thunderbolt and spear; shield at side. The Inscription reads: P M TR POT III IMP V COS X P P for Pontifex Maximus, Tribunicia Potestate Tertia, Imperator Quintum, Consul Decimum, Pater Patriae (High priest, holder of tribunician power for the third time, Imperator for the fifth time, consul for the tenth time, father of the nation).

A contemporary plated imitation of a very rare type. The original RIC was a very (!) rare type! From the collection of Dr. D. Löer, formed since the 1970s, privately acquired from Frank S. Robinson

 

 

Titus Flavius Domitianus as Caesar
Fourrée Denarius of the Roman Imperial Period 76/77 AD; Material: Silver; Diameter: 18mm; Weight: 3.01g; Mint: Imitating the Rome mint; Reference: For prototype, cf. RIC II.1 921 (Vespasian), BMCRE 193 (Vespasian) and RSC 47; Provenance: Ex Roma Numnismatics London

Obverse: Head of Domitian, laureate, right. The Inscripotion reads: CAESAR AVG F DOMITIANVS for Caesar Augusti FIlius Domitianus (Caesar, son of the Augustus, Domitian); Reverse: Pegasus standing right, left foreleg raised, wings curling up on back. The Inscription reads: COS IIII for Consul Quartum (Consul for the fourth time).

From the J. Greiff Collection, assembled prior to 1998

 

[Pellinore]

Both SUPERB coins! What a great style!

[John Conduitt]

On 3/27/2023 at 7:50 AM, Tejas said:

Very interesting coin. I doubt that it was minted in Kent, though. The model for this coin was a Visigothic tremissis in the name of Anastasius (without the cross on the breast). Despite the findspot, I think this coin was minted in southern Gaul, either under Visigothic or (more likely) Frankish rule. 

Yes for this to be struck in Kent it would have to predate the earliest Kentish tremisses by 100 years.

[Hrefn]

My most sincere thanks to all who have posted their imitative and barbarian coins.  The collapse of the western empire and its evolution into Germanic kingdoms, all of which continued coin production in increasingly decentralized styles is intensely interesting.   My earliest   Barbarian coins predate coins of the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths.  Since I have only a few imitative/barbarian examples I request your indulgence as I have posted these previously.  

The first coin is of Julian II the Apostate,  360-363 AD.  

Heavyweight 4.59 gram gold Solidus in high relief in the style of an aureus, modeled on a coin of Lugdunum.  Cf. RIC 226 (Lyon).  Purchased by private treaty from Freeman and Sear, at the NY Int’l Coin show 01/2004. 

Reverse legend is VIRTUS EXERC CALI  the last word meant to be GALL in praise of Julian’s army in Gaul.  

Ex: Dr. E. Poncet collection,(Bourgey, 15 March 1926, lot #71), then Triton III lot #1224 “unusual and extremely rare”;  and Leu 72, 12 May 1998 lot#542. “One of only two specimens known” per Freeman and Sear, published in their mail bid list #9 on 7/16/2003.   

The other example came up for auction last year!      Auctioned by Burgan Numismatique Maison Florange as seen below.  Online auction 22-1 lot #33 on 6 march 2022 with starting bid of 7000 euro, but went unsold, as far as I know.    This specimen is ex:  Bastien collection, it has two die breaks and a central scrape.  Both obv and reverse are die matches.  (NOT MY COIN)

I would love to know what happened to this coin after last year’s auction.  It did not appear for sale as a post auction unsold lot.

The second coin in my photos above is a tremissis of Leo, with retrograde lettering on the reverse and a barbaric style.

 

 

 

[Rand]

8 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

Yes for this to be struck in Kent it would have to predate the earliest Kentish tremisses by 100 years.

Yes. And it would change some other perceptions of the period. I would love this to be the case. For now, there is only a theory to prove or disprove, with the latter perhaps having higher odds (let the odds be in my favour this time). 🙂 

[Rand]

7 hours ago, Hrefn said:

Since I have only a few imitative/barbarian examples I request your indulgence as I have posted these previously.  

These are impressive coins!!! - pieces of history of which written records are next to non-existent.

Perhaps we should stop calling them ‘barbarians’. They were unique people with their institutions, traditions, and cultures which they had to keep within the Imperial framework.

To produce these coins, they needed planning, funding, artists, metal workers, and likely approval of local leaders - most of all, reasons and needs for these coins.

Many of us on this forum are descendants of these ‘barbarians.’

Thank you for sharing!

[Hrefn]

6 hours ago, Rand said:

1qPerhaps we should stop calling them ‘barbarians’. They were unique people with their institutions, traditions, and cultures which they had to keep within the Imperial framework.

To produce these coins, they needed planning, funding, artists, metal workers, and likely approval of local leaders - most of all, reasons and needs for these coins.

Many of us on this forum are descendants of these ‘barbarians.’

I agree with your sentiments, but I think the term ‘barbarians’ is so old and established that it would be impossible to change.  After all, the term predates Ancient Rome and Classical Greece, being first attested in Mycenaean Linear B.  The Greeks needed a term for the non-Hellenes, and the Romans for those outside the Empire.   We are using the same word as they, which gives it a 3000 year history.  Being a conservative at heart, I do not believe a word for a concept, which has been found useful for three millennia, should be lightly discarded.  

The negative connotations the word ‘barbarian’ has acquired are the objectionable thing.  But anyone who has studied the Classical World swiftly learns that there is no shining line between the Greeks and Romans, and the Barbarians, when it comes to virtues or vices, nor to organization, art, culture, or craft.