The Cob Corner

[robinjojo]

Maybe it's not a corner.  It is a nicely alliterative title, better than Cob Octagon or Cob Triangle. 

I thought it would be nice to have a thread dedicated to these fascinating and historical coins, a venue where I can share my enthusiasm for these coin and one where we can share information and coins, perhaps instilling the collecting bug in some of you who are interested and need just a nudge to become full blown cob collectors.

I have accumulated and documented many cobs over the past 40 plus years.  I have posted many here and at CoinTalk.  My postings are rather messy, not very systematic, jumping from one mint or king as I pull coins for photographing.  Please bear with me, and I hope that the coins posted herein are both entertaining and informative.

I'll start with coins that I have photographed on file.  I'll continue to post and please share your cobs.  If you have any questions, I will try to answer them to the best of my knowledge.

First, Potosi:

Potosi 7 1/2 reales, Philip IV, 1651 E, crown CM revaluation, salvaged.

KM C19.15

26.4 grams

 

Potosi 8 reales Philip V, (1)712 Y.

KM 31

26.66 grams

 

Potosi 8 reales, Charles III, (1)770 VY possibly J.  From the Sedwick 2021 auction.

KM 45

27.0 grams

 

Potosi, 8 reales, Philip IV, 1626 P.  From the Sedwick auction of May 2017. 

KM19A

26.52 grams

 

Potosi, 8 reales, Philip  IV, 1632T, Indonesian salvage.

Paoli 187; KM 19a

26.7 grams

 

Potosi, 8 reales, Philip IV, 1646 R over P. 

KM 19a

26.2 grams

Potosi, 8 reales, Philip IV, 1651 E, modern style 5 in date, counterstamp F.

KM c 19.3 (counterstamp) KM 19b (coin)

26.7 grams

 

Potosi 8 reales  Philip IV, 1652 E, transitional type, shield reverse, salvaged.

KM A20.4

 

Potosi 8 reales, Charles III, 1770 V.

KM 45

26.9 grams

 

Potosi, 8 reales, Philip V, 1746 q, round,  Purchased from Freeman Craig.

26.3 grams

 

Potosi. 8 reales, Philip III, 1617 M.  Purchased from World Wide Coins of California in 1990.

Atocha Reference Collection no 208.

KM 10

27.2 grams

 

Potosi, 8 reales, Philip II, No Date, Assayer B.  Acquired from Hal Blackburn around 1981.

Paloetti Group 5B No 83

 

Potosi, 8 reales, Philip IV, 1652 E, transitional type, salvaged.  Acquired from Daniel Sedwick.

KM A20.6

26.4 grams

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2 by robinjojo

[panzerman]

Those are outstanding/ thanks for showing them😍

 

John

[thenickelguy]

Wow. Nice collection. 

[Hughie Dwyer]

23 hours ago, robinjojo said:

I thought it would be nice to have a thread dedicated to these fascinating and historical coins, a venue where I can share my enthusiasm for these coin and one where we can share information and coins, perhaps instilling the collecting bug in some of you who are interested and need just a nudge to become full blown cob collectors.

I've never really paid any attention to coins like these before. However, these look outstanding. You've got me interested - that's for sure!

 

[robinjojo]

Thank you.

I'll continue with the Lima cobs that I have on file.  I have far fewer compared to Potosi or Mexico.

Lima, 8 reales, Philip II, undated  (1577-1587),  Diego de la Torre.

S-L4; KM-14; Cal-655

27.38 grams

 

Lima, 8 reales, Charles II, (16)86, Assayer R.

KM 24

27.0 grams

 

Lima, 8 escudos Philip V, 1715, Assayer M.  Partial second date on pillars side, upper left.  Purchased from Daniel Sedwick in 2001.

KM 38.2

26.8 grams

 

Lima  8 escudos, Philip V, 1738 N. 

KM 38.2

 

 

Lima, 8 reales, Philip V, 1743 V, apparent hand recut 3 over 2.  From a small hoard found in Sanaʽa, Yemen about 8 years ago.

KM 34a

26.47 grams

 

Lima 8 escudos, Ferdinand VI, 1750, Assayer R.  Salvaged from the Luz (1752).  Purchased from Pat Johnson, Huston, Texas in the 1990s.

KM 47

 

I have other Lima cobs and 4 reales from various mints that I hope to photograph in the future.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by robinjojo

[thenickelguy]

Holy smokes!

[robinjojo]

Thanks, everyone!

Here are the Colombia cobs on file.  Colombia, like Brazil, was gold rich and silver poor, as exemplified by the large number of gold coins and comparatively fewer silver coins on the market for the colonial period. 

The two mints in Colombia were Santa Fe de Bogota and Cartagena de Indies.  The later is a fabled city, whose port, the fortresses and the monuments are  UNESCO heritage sites.

The fortress of Cartagena, Colombia, lit up at night.

 

The cobs that I own are the cumulative result of buying these elusive coins over decades.

Colombia, Cartagena, 8 reales, Philip IV, (RN)E to left of shield, 1629.

KM 3.4

27.3 grams

The first cobs produced at both mints was the shield type, introduced in 1622 by the Bogota mint, using dies from Spain.  The shield coinage was sporadic, especially for silver coinage.  Distinguishing Colombian cobs from other cobs, especially those from Spain, can be challenging at times.  The keys to look for are the mint  and assayer marks, which are sometimes off the flan or incomplete due to striking anomalies.

How do we know that this is a cob from Cartagena?  Looking to the left of the shield, flatly struck are a N (very weak) and an E, or (R)NE, running vertically.  Cartagena at this time use the RN,.  Very confusing!  However, the assayer E worked at Cartagena, so, based on that information the coin was minted in Cartagena in 1629.  That date is speculative on my part.  It runs on the reverse from around 10 to between 11 and 12 o'clock.  The 1 and 6 (faint) are legible, but due to a bend in the flan, made at the mint, the 2 and 9 are extremely weak and can only be detected with high magnification.  Even then those last two numerals are not conclusive.

 

This is my only Colombian gold cob, a 2 escudos from Bogota.

Colombia, Bogota, 2 escudos, Philip IV, NRA, circa 1630s.  Purchased in the early 1990s from a local coin dealer, Austin and Company.

6.7 grams

Here, we have a coin that has a minor die shift, struck from rusted dies, and with weakly struck mint and assayer marks.  Still, it is possible to see the N, part of the R and a very weak A, NRA - NR for Nuevo Reino de Granada, the name of the colony, and the A for the assayer.  The date on this coin runs from about 9 to around 10 o'clock.  The 1 and the bottom of the 6 are visible, but the remainder of the date is off the flan, as is very often the case with these coins.  

 

In the 1650s Colombian cobs switched, along with Potosi and Lima to the pillars and waves design that remined for the duration of this coinage.

Colombia, Bogota, 8 reales, Philip IV,  1660s, PoRS NR.   Purchased from Superior Galleries in the early 1990s.

KM 7.1

27.1 grams

I was fortunate to win this coin in a Superior auction.  The pillars and waves cobs from Bogota are quite expensive and often salvaged.  This coin, with its slightly oxidized surfaces might be from a salvage, but it is full weight and attractive in its crude way, with strong centers on both sides.  With cobs in general, collectors will pay more for coins with complete or nearly complete center strikes.

This cob shows typical areas of strength and weakness in the strike, so even with the obverse date situated towards the coin's center, the last two numerals are muddled and weak, the last one really not visible.  For a while I though the date was 1665.  I am pretty sure that the third numeral is a 6.  With the help of Krause, that puts the coin in the period of 1663-1665.  

 

I think that I have one more cob, a shield type from Bogota that I need to photograph.

Next up will be the cobs of Mexico on file.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by robinjojo

[robinjojo]

Today I thought I'd move on to the mint of Mexico City, the oldest mint in the Americas, founded on May 11, 1535.  As such this mint has a rich legacy and longstanding impact on the economic and political history of Mexico, North America, Europe and much of the rest of the world.  

It is difficult, at least for me, to say which mint had the highest production of cobs, Mexico or Potosi?  It seems almost a dead heat in my view, as both mints had continuous production, without the interruptions experienced by Lima or the extremely sporadic production of Bogota and Cartagena, Colombia.  I guess I'd give the edge to Potosi, since cob production continued until 1773.  Mexico began ending cob production with the introduction of the milled pillar and waves coinage in 1732, with the last cob type appearing in 1734. 

Here are some of the main types of Mexican cobs that show up on the market.  I have other cobs that I will photograph and post in this thread.

The first pillars cobs, the "Charles and Johanna" type, in the denominations of 2, 4 and 8 reales began when the mint was established.  There are two distinct types: coins with waves and coins without waves. The latter are by far the rarer of the two varieties.  Only a very few 8 reales of the no waves design were produced, making these coins exceedingly rare as the first silver dollar produced in the Americas.  One example sold at auction for $373,750, the highest price ever paid for a Spanish colonial coin at the time.  It could still be the record.

My first Mexican cob, without waves, is far humbler, but it is a pretty one.

Mexico, Charles ,I 4 reales, No Date (1536-1538), Assayer R (Francisco del Rincon).  Purchased from Rick Ponterio.

KM-16; Nesmith-6c

13.47 grams

 

The pillars without waves design was modified to include waves around 1542, with production running until around 1571, when the shield design was adopted, replacing the pillars and waves, under Philip II.  Of the two pillars types, this design is far more common, although locating a nice example is no mean feat.

Mexico., Philip II, 4 reales, circa 1570, assayer L (Luis Rodriguez).

KM 0018

13.8 grams

The assayer can be found on this coin to the left of the shield.  The pillars and waves cobs, including the 1/2, 1, 2 and 4 reales cobs, can have mint marks and assayer marks in various positions.

 

Shield types (this basic design remained largely unaltered to the end of cob production)

Following the pillars cobs, silver production and mint capacity allowed for the reintroduction of 8 reales cobs.

Mexico, Philip II,8 reales, No Date (circa 1571-1578), Assayer O (Bernardo de Onate and Luis de Onate).  Purchased from Rick Ponterio.

KM 43

27.2 grams

Assayer O appears below the oM mint mark, to the left of the shield.  This will remain the assayer's position on cob coinage for 2, 4 and 8 reales for the duration of coinage, with a few minor exceptions.

 

Mexico, Philip III, 8 reales, No Date (1599-1607), Assayer F (Francisco de Morales).  Ex Richard Long 12-1982

KM 44.1

Seed coin for fake Philip III 8 reales, 

27.4 grams

The undated cobs of Philip II and Philip III are quite difficult to distinguish if not enough peripheral information is visible.  However, as a rule of thumb, the inner part of the central crown above the shield has vertical lines for Philip III.  Philip II cobs lack these lines. 

Another interesting aspect of this coin is that it was used as the seed coin, to produce the casting mold, for replica Philip III Mexico 8 reales cobs by a couple of brothers in Mexico City back in the 1960s.  These fakes sometimes surface, and they can be tricky to detect since they are often made of good silver.

Here is an example, courtesy of Daniel Sedwick.  Note how the flan cracks are filled in and not sharp, and overall detail is flat.  The color is also off, indicating lower silver content, as indeed the weight indicates.  Still, as copies the quality is not bad.

Fake Mexico Philip III 8 reales.

24.8 grams 

 

Dated coinage began in 1607.  The date, when visible, runs from roughly 9 o'clock to 11 o'clock, but that can vary.  Unlike Potosi, the Mexican cobs only have one position for the date, so if it is off the flan or poorly struck and illegible, you're out of luck.  Often times the date is only partially visible and muddled, leading one to engage in some detective work and an educated guess.

Mexico, Philip IV, 8 reales 1667, Assayer G over P.  Musi River Sumatra salvage.

KM 45

25.4 grams

As coinage under Philip IV progressed, the flans became less round, with some very "barrel" shaped.

 

The year 1665  saw the passing of Philip IV and the ascension of Charles II to the throne of Spain, under a regency for many years.  Mexico began to mint cobs with his name in 1667.  Over the years of his reign, the quality of the coinage declined dramatically.  Indeed his coinage is easily the crudest in every respect: oddly shaped flans, crude dies and often times horrendous strikes.

Mexico, Charles II, 8 reales, (166)9, Assayer G (Geronimo Baccera).  Purchased from the Mexican Coin Company

KM 46

26.7 grams

 

Here's a 4 reales of Charles II, Mexico, that has a flan shaped like a cat or some other animal.

Mexico, Charles II, 4 reales, date not visible (circa 1690s), Assayer (L).

KM 39

13.7 grams

 

While the early cobs of Philip V continued the trend for odd shaped flans, his later cobs became often square or rectangular shaped.  With is cobs comes the Bourbon shield of three fleur des Lis in the middle of the obverse shield.

Mexico, Philip V, 8 reales 1710, Assayer J (Jose Eustaquio de Leon).   A bird-shaped flan.  From Sedwick Treasure Auction 26, lot 405.

KM 47; S-M22; CT-unlisted

26.77 grams

 

Mexico, Philip V, 8 reales Philip, 1730, Assayer F (Felipe Rivas Angulo).  Acapulco Hoard.

KM 47a

27.06 grams

By the 1720s to early 1730s the flan became very square and chunky.  

 

Finally, for this post, is a final hybrid cob, a beautiful coin, that was produced for a couple of years 1733-1734, contemporaneously with the milled pillar waves coinage.  These coin are called "kilpped" cobs, due to the angular edges.  Indeed it is hard to tell if these coins were hand or machine struck.  The fans are irregular, similar to cobs, but the strikes are often so uniform, one can see how only a press was used.  The dies are unique to this type.  They were not used to produce milled coins

Mexico Philip V 8 reales, 1733 MF, 'klippe' type.  Ex Ponterio Auction,, COIN, June 1988.

KM 48

27.3 grams

 

Edit:

I forgot to include my one 8 escudos from Mexico.  The old brain is going fast!

Mexico, Philip V, 8 escudos, 1713 J  (Jose Eustaquio de Leon).  Purchased at Long Beach, January 1990

KM 57.1

26.96g

 

To bring this post full circle, here's a milled 1733 8 reales, the second year of the new design, actually a revival of the pillars and waves design of nearly 200 years prior.

Mexico, Philip V, 8 reales, 1733 F, milled pillars and waves, Marathon Florida find.  From the 1733 Fleet.

KM 103

25.70 grams

This coin, purchased over 20 years ago from Daniel Sedwick, is said to have been found under a nineteenth century building in the Florida Keys, at Marathon.  The small structure was and old wooden building about 14 feet by 20 feet.  The coin was lying in the sand underneath.

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by robinjojo

[robinjojo]

I thought I'd post a few more coins in the hope that other members might be interested in adding a cob or two.  Apparently collecting Spanish hammered coinage is an area not frequented by forum members, but perhaps this will change over time.

These coins are recent purchases from Sedwick's Treasure Auction 35, held last month.

Potosi, Philip IV, 8 reales, 1634 T.  Full date.  Sedwick Treasure Auction 35, lot 924.

KM 19a

27.00 grams

First, we have an 8 reales from Potosi, dated 1634, assay T (Juan Ximenez de Tapia).  When the coins of this assayer for the period 1629-1639 appeared, they represented an improvement in quality over the extremely crude Potosi cobs of the 1620s.  This did not last very long.  As the 1630s progressed the strikes, flans and dies of this coinage took on the crude, makeshift appearances preceding issues.  While the weights generally tended to be within standard, basic information is often missing on any given coin from this period.  This example, however, does possess one very important feature: a full date.  This was accomplished by at least two strikes on the reverse (cross side).  While not the prettiest cob on the block, its crude minting did produce an unambiguous date, along with a nearly full shield, assayer and mint marks.

 

Potosi, 8 reales, Philip IV, (16)41 TR (Pedro Trevino).  Sedwick Treasure Auction 35, lot 926.

KM 19a

26.44 grams

This coin has an interesting and rare feature on the obverse.  The Flanders-Tirol in bottom half replaced by the shield of Portugal (weak but certain). According to Bolivian researcher Daniel Oropeza Alba, this strange issue (more prominent on the Royals for this year) is linked to a Portuguese neighborhood within Potosí known as the "Lusitanos" that suffered persecution and dispossession of property as a result of the Portuguese revolution of 1640, which ended Spanish control and restored the Portuguese throne under the Duke of Braganza (João IV)

The lions and castles on the reverse are transposed, something that occurs with some frequency with the old style shield cobs of Potosi of the 17th century.  The last half of the date is quite bold.

 

The last cob out of this auction is from Seville, the most prolific of the Spanish mainland mints.  

Spain, 8 reales, Philip IV, (16)30/29 R (name unknown), Seville.  Sedwick Treasure Auction 35, lot 1417.

KM 80

27.03 grams

This coin exhibits typical crudeness in strike.  The overdate is quite bold, especially with the 3/2 and as such is rare, apparently the only example showing 30/29.

 

So, your comments and questions are always welcome.  Please post your cobs or other Spanish colonial and mainland coins, if you wish.

Thanks!

 

 

Edited June 1 by robinjojo

[Dafydd]

At the FUN show earlier this month I purchased The practical book of cobs in anticipation of visiting the Mel Fisher museum in Key West.

I have become interested in shipwreck coins as a diver myself and purchased from a trusted source my first Cob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I bought this book which I enjoyed thoroughly and it has opened my eyes to the options available in this particular area of collecting.

I would very much welcome any comments about my first Cob from members.

I also bought this 8 reales.

 

I believe I am falling head first into another rabbit hole.......

[Spargrodan]

@robinjojo awesome thread, I’m also interested to learn more about cobs and colonial coins. Do you have any good tips on literature or websites to look up for a novice?

Edited July 31 by Spargrodan

[PeteB]

"and please share your cobs."

See my cobs at: http://akropoliscoins.com/page7.html

[Sulla80]

I know absolutely nothing about this coin - other than about 20+ years ago I liked the look and weight of it and it was an early currency of the Americas.

Any info or links to resources on these coins would be welcome.  This coin stretches the time boundaries of my collection - which rarely ventures in to the 17th century.

Seville, Spain, cob 8 reales, Philip IV (1621-1665), assayer R? shield and cross-lions-castles, bold mintmark (S).

Edited August 3 by Sulla80

[robinjojo]

I am sorry that I have not replied until now.  I was away a few days in Southern California.

On 7/31/2024 at 2:38 PM, Dafydd said:

At the FUN show earlier this month I purchased The practical book of cobs in anticipation of visiting the Mel Fisher museum in Key West.

I have become interested in shipwreck coins as a diver myself and purchased from a trusted source my first Cob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I bought this book which I enjoyed thoroughly and it has opened my eyes to the options available in this particular area of collecting.

I would very much welcome any comments about my first Cob from members.

I also bought this 8 reales.

 

I believe I am falling head first into another rabbit hole.......

Those are wonderful coins, with great detail and minimal corrosion.  The 8 reales cob has a clear assayer R (Nicolas de Rojas), which puts your coin in the 1729-30 date range.  The Cazador 8 reales is also very nice. The Krause catalog number is KM 106.2.

On 7/31/2024 at 2:58 PM, Spargrodan said:

@robinjojo awesome thread, I’m also interested to learn more about cobs and colonial coins. Do you have any good tips on literature or websites to look up for a novice?

I highly recommend Daniel Sedwick's Practical Book of Cobs.  This is the perfect book for beginning  and established collectors of Spanish colonial hammered coinage.  As for websites, Sedwick's has some pages devoted to fakes as well as a list of articles. 

Here's a link:

 https://www.sedwickcoins.com/articles.htm

For Potosi coinage, Emilio Paoletti's 8 Reales Cobs of Potosi is an excellent reference.  While it is somewhat pricey, it is worth the cost.  It has been updated since the last copy that I own.

On 7/31/2024 at 3:27 PM, PeteB said:

"and please share your cobs."

See my cobs at: http://akropoliscoins.com/page7.html

You have some very nice examples!  I also like the lion daalders.

On 7/31/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sulla80 said:

I know absolutely nothing about this coin - other than about 20+ I liked the look and weight of it and it was an early currency of the Americas.

Any info or links to resources on these coins would be welcome.  This coin stretches the time boundaries of my collection - which rarely ventures in to the 17th century.

Seville, Spain, cob 8 reales, Philip IV (1621-1665), assayer R? shield and cross-lions-castles, bold mintmark (S).

Nice coin!  That cob is indeed from Seville, assayer R, 1621-1665 (name unknown according to Krause).  The central detail is very bold and well centered.  I don't see any signs of corrosion, which makes this coin very scarce.  The Seville cobs tend to be squarish and chunky, which makes them so nice in the hand.  

Another feature of your coin that distinguishes it from the colonial cobs is the presence of the arms of Portugal on the Hapsburg shield toward the top.  Generally speaking these arms are not on the colonial coins, with the brief exception the the very rare Colombian cobs of 1622.  It is thought that the dies for the cobs of that date were created in Spain.  Subsequent coins lack the arms of Portugal.

Edited August 2 by robinjojo

[robinjojo]

Here's a fairly recent acquisition that I think I posted earlier in a thread of its own, so here it is in this thread.

This came from the Clyde Hubbard collection.  Clyde, based in Mexico, was a longtime collector and dealer in Mexican coinage.  While this type for Mexico is rather common as these go, it is nice to have an example from his collection.

Mexico, 8 reales, Philip III, ND (1599-1607).

KM 44.1

27.4 grams

And here is the original envelope:

[Dafydd]

3 hours ago, robinjojo said:

I am sorry that I have not replied until now.  I was away a few days in Southern California.

Those are wonderful coins, with great detail and minimal corrosion.  The 8 reales cob has a clear assayer R (Nicolas de Rojas), which puts your coin in the 1729-30 date range.  The Cazador 8 reales is also very nice. The Krause catalog number is KM 106.2.

I highly recommend Daniel Sedwick's Practical Book of Cobs.  This is the perfect book for beginning  and established collectors of Spanish colonial hammered coinage.  As for websites, Sedwick's has some pages devoted to fakes as well as a list of articles. 

Here's a link:

 https://www.sedwickcoins.com/articles.htm

For Potosi coinage, Emilio Paoletti's 8 Reales Cobs of Potosi is an excellent reference.  While it is somewhat pricey, it is worth the cost.  It has been updated since the last copy that I own.

You have some very nice examples!  I also like the lion daalders.

Nice coin!  That cob is indeed from Seville, assayer R, 1621-1665 (name unknown according to Krause).  The central detail is very bold and well centered.  I don't see any signs of corrosion, which makes this coin very scarce.  The Seville cobs tend to be squarish and chunky, which makes them so nice in the hand.  

Another feature of your coin that distinguishes it from the colonial cobs is the presence of the arms of Portugal on the Hapsburg shield toward the top.  Generally speaking these arms are not on the colonial coins, with the brief exception the the very rare Colombian cobs of 1622.  It is thought that the dies for the cobs of that date were created in Spain.  Subsequent coins lack the arms of Portugal.

Thank you so much @robinjojo not only have you imparted knowledge and insight saving me considerable time ( I am not a lazy researcher but have limited time) but you have illustrated what these coins can reveal giving me huge enthusiasm to continue this journey. Thank you!

[Spargrodan]

15 hours ago, robinjojo said:

I am sorry that I have not replied until now.  I was away a few days in Southern California.

Those are wonderful coins, with great detail and minimal corrosion.  The 8 reales cob has a clear assayer R (Nicolas de Rojas), which puts your coin in the 1729-30 date range.  The Cazador 8 reales is also very nice. The Krause catalog number is KM 106.2.

I highly recommend Daniel Sedwick's Practical Book of Cobs.  This is the perfect book for beginning  and established collectors of Spanish colonial hammered coinage.  As for websites, Sedwick's has some pages devoted to fakes as well as a list of articles. 

Here's a link:

 https://www.sedwickcoins.com/articles.htm

For Potosi coinage, Emilio Paoletti's 8 Reales Cobs of Potosi is an excellent reference.  While it is somewhat pricey, it is worth the cost.  It has been updated since the last copy that I own.

You have some very nice examples!  I also like the lion daalders.

Nice coin!  That cob is indeed from Seville, assayer R, 1621-1665 (name unknown according to Krause).  The central detail is very bold and well centered.  I don't see any signs of corrosion, which makes this coin very scarce.  The Seville cobs tend to be squarish and chunky, which makes them so nice in the hand.  

Another feature of your coin that distinguishes it from the colonial cobs is the presence of the arms of Portugal on the Hapsburg shield toward the top.  Generally speaking these arms are not on the colonial coins, with the brief exception the the very rare Colombian cobs of 1622.  It is thought that the dies for the cobs of that date were created in Spain.  Subsequent coins lack the arms of Portugal.

@robinjojo thanks will look at the link!

[Alegandron]

Oh,wow! I have not been around much, but when I saw COB in the heading, I thought, WOW horses/ponies!

I rented a farm when I expatted in Wales, and had 12 Welsh Cobs!

sorry for the interruption….

[robinjojo]

1 hour ago, Alegandron said:

Oh,wow! I have not been around much, but when I saw COB in the heading, I thought, WOW horses/ponies!

I rented a farm when I expatted in Wales, and had 12 Welsh Cobs!

sorry for the interruption….

The term "cob" as a reference to the hammered Spanish coinage has its roots, according to some, in the Spanish term "cabo de barra" with cabo meaning the end of the bar.  At least that's one possible root. The word cabo might have transferred into English as cob.

Another possible origin is the Old English word cob, a word to describe something that is lumpy or a small mass.  

There is no consensus, so pick the source that you prefer.

[Dafydd]

On 8/3/2024 at 10:28 PM, Alegandron said:

Oh,wow! I have not been around much, but when I saw COB in the heading, I thought, WOW horses/ponies!

I rented a farm when I expatted in Wales, and had 12 Welsh Cobs!

sorry for the interruption….

WOW what an image! @Alegandron  My most trusted dealer is Michael Trennery who is a Noonans consultant. HIs wife is one of the most respected breeders of Welsh Cob in the UK . What a weird small world. Where did you live in Wales?

[Alegandron]

3 hours ago, Dafydd said:

WOW what an image! @Alegandron  My most trusted dealer is Michael Trennery who is a Noonans consultant. HIs wife is one of the most respected breeders of Welsh Cob in the UK . What a weird small world. Where did you live in Wales?

I lived in Llanbedr-y-Fro / Peterston-Super-Ely for 3 years.  1999-2002.  Managing Director for a manufacturing company in Bridgend.  Loved your Country! My kids went to Cowbridge School, and University of Glamorgan. 
 

I keep a few of your avatar on my desk as a wonderful reminder of living there.

Edited August 10 by Alegandron

[Dafydd]

19 hours ago, Alegandron said:

I lived in Llanbedr-y-Fro / Peterston-Super-Ely for 3 years.  1999-2002.  Managing Director for a manufacturing company in Bridgend.  Loved your Country! My kids went to Cowbridge School, and University of Glamorgan. 
 

I keep a few of your avatar on my desk as a wonderful reminder of living there.

Yes a small world indeed @Alegandron. You will remember The Sportsmans Rest in Peterstone Super Ely. I was in Bridgend on Thursday and have an office in Porthcawl.

I'm sorry the COB's weren't horses for you but you do get to reminisce. 

 

 

[Alegandron]

On 8/10/2024 at 2:49 PM, Dafydd said:

Yes a small world indeed @Alegandron. You will remember The Sportsmans Rest in Peterstone Super Ely. I was in Bridgend on Thursday and have an office in Porthcawl.

I'm sorry the COB's weren't horses for you but you do get to reminisce. 

 

 

@Dafydd, I spent many an eve in Sportsman’s Rest.  After I repatriated back to the States, I returned one year and visited Sportman’s on Xmas nite. They had to “close” due to legal hours, but they saw who I was when I knocked on the door, let me in, and had a great nite with the regular gang!

I used to attend Quiz Nites, and they were amazed that a dumb yank would answer, as well as win for our table several evenings.

My oldest was a Bar Wench there, as well as at the Three Horseshoes at the bottom.

I also always had Saturday lunches at The Bush in Hillary.  
 

Several folks I worked with were from Porthcawl.

I miss it all. 🙂

Edited August 13 by Alegandron

[robinjojo]

I keep telling myself that I have too many cobs (coins, not horses), but I cannot resist purchasing yet another of these historical coins.

So, having arrived yesterday from Canada, here is the latest addition, from Mexico.

Mexico, 8 reales, Philip IV (16)23/2, assayer D (name unknown) . Sana'a hoard.

KM 45

27.65 grams

Here's a higher level of magnification image from the seller of the obverse:

This cob has its own story.

This coin was struck on a solid, thick, massive flan, making it a physical presence that feels nice in hand.  The strike is well centered on both side and pretty uniform for this type. 

The obverse, a main point of interest, features a nearly complete Spanish Hapsburg shield, with a bold mint mark and oversized D for the assayer.  It also appears that the o over M mint mark was initially punched too low in relationship to the shield and leaving insufficient room for the assayer.  So, the mint mark was punched again in a higher position, and the oversized D punched over the errant mint mark.  Elements of the original mint mark remain beneath the oM D.  The overdate is pretty clear.  Following the legend clockwise to around 10 o'clock, the 2 (a little blurry) is followed by a clearer second 2 with a 3 partially superimposed over it.  As is the case collecting other coins, experience collecting cobs helps decipher what is otherwise obscure and confusing.

The reverse has a mostly strong cross, with the round ends unique to Mexico, and lions and castles.  

As is the case with ancient coins, with these crudely hammered coin, when it comes to detail, almost always something is gained and something is lost.  In the case of this coin it is the peripheral legend. This is very typical for these coins.  Finding even part of a date on a Mexican cob is usually quite rare, especially if it is reasonably visible with minimal magnification. Bold, full dates are very to extremely rare.  Blurriness is also a problem.  Looking at the area for the date the lower part of the 6 can be seen to the left of the O of the mint mark.  The two is weak, as mentioned.  For a cob collector, would this coin qualify as a (1)623/2?  For this coin I decided to describe the date as (16))23/2.

  I've seen some coins listed from Mexico and Potosi with attributed dates, at least by the seller, that seem to be next to nonexistent.  Some sellers even use highlights to show the outlines of the date.  I guess that approach is legitimate, but to a collector not familiar with the dating of these coins, and the stylistic aspects of the numerals used, depending on mint and period, a coin with an essentially flat date, visible perhaps with the help of magnification, such as coin may not be very appealing.  But, with these coins one must do whatever is needed, within bounds of propriety, to make the case for a date or another distinguishing feature.

This coin is dark in some areas, but not sea salvaged. I will not even attempt to clean it; it is fine just the way it is.  There are too many coins out there that have been over cleaned in my view.  It is from the same hoard coming out of Sana'a, Yemen over the past many years.  The nature of this hoard is obscure regarding its composition, but I am trying to obtain more from the seller.  

Edited August 13 by robinjojo

[robinjojo]

Here's another cob, this time from Sevilla, Spain.  Sevilla is by far the most prolific of the Spanish mints, especially in the 16th and 17th centuries. This makes sense; this city was a major port for goods from Spain's colonies.  However, when it comes to Spanish cobs, 8 reales cobs are scarcer than the lower denominations.  Generally it is much easier to obtain a 4 or 2 reales cob, for example. 

The fact is that much of the gold and silver that flowed into Spain moved on to help finance Spain's wars and the lifestyle of the nobility,  Spain failed, unlike England, France and the Netherlands, to invest the flow of wealth to the development of industry and what we call today infrastructure.  Moving into the 18th and 19th centuries, Spain remained a largely agrarian country, with much of the land in the hands of the nobility.  Additionally Spain was losing population, with significant migration to the colonies.

So, with this narrative as a backdrop, here's the coin.  This example is typical of the very crude coinage coming out of Sevilla at this time, in this case 1644.  The flans are extremely irregular, with little regard for even creating level surfaces.  This is very evident with this coin. As a result it is very difficult locating examples with reasonable detail and data.  

As I mentioned, sometimes with these crude coins information needs to be extrapolated based on what can be seen, plus what is known about the placement of data, such as date, on these coins.  Here we have a clear S (Sevilla) but a mushy R for the assayer, on the obverse.  The king's name and ordinal are essentially missing. Enough of the R is visible to exclude any other letter. The value, expressed as VIII is quite bold vertically to the right of the Spanish Hapsburg coat-of-arms, with the coat-of-arms of Portugal superimposed over the middle upper half.  Portugal eventually became independent from Spain's Iberian Union  in 1668.

On the reverse, the elements of the date, running roughly from 11 to 1 o'clock, are partially on the flan.  The 1 is completely missing due to a depression on the flan.  The bottom of the 6 is visible.  The lower parts of two 4s are bold and can be easily designated as 4s.  So, the date of this coin is (1)644.  Much more frequently the date is either off the flan or illegible or missing because of flan irregularities.  

Despite, or perhaps because of its crudeness, coins such as this one have a special appeal to me, and this one seems to have beaten the odds in terms of having legible important information.

Spain, 8 reales, Philip IV, Seville, (1)644 R.

KM 80

27.23 grams

Edited September 5 by robinjojo