hoards Post Your British Roman Hoard Coins!

[Zarco]

Here's one I have posted before in the London mint thread but it is from the Bourton-on-the-Water hoard, so here it is again.

Constantine I, 306-337 AD.
AE1, 4.52 g, 24.1 mm, 7 h.
Londinium mint, 310 AD.
Obv: IMP CONSTANTINVS P F IN AVG; Bust of Constantine I, laureate, cuirassed, right.
Rev: SOLI INVIC-TO COMITI ; Sol, chlamys falling from left shoulder, standing left, raising right hand and holding up globe with left hand.
Refs: RIC VI Londinium 120 (correction).
According to Not in RIC webpage, "RIC lists this type with obv. legend IMP CONSTANTINVS PI IN AVG and annotation that Bastien reads this legend as IMP CONSTANTINVS P F IN AVG. Cloke-Toone agrees with Bastien and gives P F in obv. legend (6.02.009). However, on some specimens F may resemble deformed I. There is quite similar case with LONDINIUM 146b (eBay; 4.76 g, 24 mm). RIC gives obv. legend IMP MAXIMINVS P F AVG but notes also example with ...P I AVG (p. 135 and footnote 2)." URL: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/notinric/6lon120cor.html
Acquired from Roma Numismatics, E-Sale 68, Lot 1222, 27 February 2020.
From the inventory of a UK dealer; Ex Bourton on the Water hoard of Constantine period Roman coins, purchased from C.J. and A.J. Dixon, 20 February 1979.

For info about the Bourton-on-the-Water hoard: BURGE, DAVID W. “Bourton-on-the-Water (Gloucestershire) Hoard of Constantinian Folles.” The Numismatic Chronicle (1966-) 13 (1973): 98–125. http://www.jstor.org/stable/42664668.

[Curtis JJ]

3 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

But how can you maintain the record of say, the Rauceby Hoard, which the finders are selling on eBay (amongst other places)? eBay doesn't keep the photos posted for long, so very soon you're relying on the paper record and hearsay again.

There are a couple places to search expired eBay records, there are probably others. One is commercial: worthpoint. (I've only used the free version, which seems to be limited in time, but I think they claim comprehensive coverage over a large period.)

The other, which I prefer, is Rasiel Suarez's coryssa.org (formerly COINVAC). Any time I have a coin with an eBay provenance, I try to find the coryssa record. I'm not exactly sure how he collects the data, but it doesn't seem to be 100% comprehensive (or my searching/navigating skills fail me). It takes a while to learn the quirks of how to use the interface, and it can be slow (since I think Ras must fund the server space and upkeep himself) but it's an amazing service he's donating to the community. I've never found the "donate" button (I do see his email), though I see Rick Shaefer asking about it in the comments in 2020 (I suggest scrolling through the comments, which are very occasional since 2012, but still active).

Edited August 6, 2022 by Curtis JJ

[John Conduitt]

15 minutes ago, Zarco said:

Here's one I have posted before in the London mint thread but it is from the Bourton-on-the-Water hoard, so here it is again

And, somehow, it is the first coin we have from the Bourton-on-the-Water Hoard, Constantine I or Gloucestershire.

 

(List of hoards updated)

Edited August 6, 2022 by John Conduitt

[John Conduitt]

To bolster our Constantine I representation...

Constantine I Follis, 319-320Londinium. Bronze, 18mm, 3.03g. Laureate, cuirassed bust right, wearing high-crested helmet; CONSTANT-INVS MAX AG. Two Victories holding shield inscribed VOT PR over altar, with altar decoration Helvetica 3d (cross within wreath); VICTORIAE LAETAE PRINC PERP; mintmark PLN (RIC VII, 171). From the Martock (Somerset) Hoard 2012.

[John Conduitt]

For some reason, Gratian siliquae seem to come out very well from hoards.

Gratian Siliqua, 367-375Treveri. Silver, 2.03g. Diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; DN GRATIA-NVS P F AVG. Roma seated left, holding Victory and sceptre; VRBS - ROMA, mintmark TRPS (RIC 27f). From the Otterbourne (Hampshire) Hoard 1978.

An unemployed lorry driver with a metal detector unearthed 7 miliarenses, 536 siliquae and fragments of a pottery container at a site near Poles Lane, Otterbourne, Hampshire. They had been buried around 402. A second hoard of 155 siliquae was found by members of the Hampshire Detector Club in 1980, with a further five coins found in 1989. Portable Antiquities Scheme: IARCH-1D7C98

[John Conduitt]

The Botley Hoard was 90% radiates from Victorinus, Tetricus I, Postumus, Claudius II and Gallienus.

Valerian I Antoninianus, 258-259

Colonia Agrippina. Silver, 23mm, 3.49g. Radiate draped and cuirassed bust right; VALERIANVS P F AVG. Virtus-Soldier standing left holding Victory and spear; VIRTVS-AVGG (RIC V, 24 Var). From the Botley (Hampshire) Hoard 1994 of 1,395 coins, mostly radiates, deposited in 274. Portable Antiquities Scheme: IARCH-569EED.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Which vcoins dealers are best for named British hoards?  There was one, what was it, Beast Coins?

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Which vcoins dealers are best for named British hoards?  There was one, what was it, Beast Coins?

It depends.

Ideally, you want a dealer who bought the original hoard or a significant portion of it, or is selling it on behalf of the finders e.g. Sebastian Sondermann Numismatics and the 2011 Pamphill Hoard, or Victor's Imperial Coins and the 1833 Mildenhall Hoard. In the past, many dealers have done the same.

There are dealers not on VCoins who sell whole hoards recently discovered e.g. Silbury Coins.

Otherwise, you need a dealer who can prove the provenance i.e. give a link to the Portable Antiquities Scheme record and for there to be a photo of the coin (not just a description). For example, Noonans auctioned the Vale of Pewsey Hoard as a whole (which in itself is great provenance) and you can see identifiable photos of the coins on the PAS page for the hoard.

Personally, I wouldn't buy any coins from the West Norfolk (aka Grimston) Hoard without seeing a photo of the coin on one of the many PAS pages, which are listed at the top of this thread.

Sometimes you can find the original hoard sale, and see the specific coin in the sale. An example would be the East Harptree Hoard, which was sold by Spink in 2016 and the coins are almost all identifiable. The Vale of Pewsey Hoard mentioned above is on the Noonans website.

Beyond that, you're down to trust, both in the dealer and the person who sold the coin to the dealer. VCoins dealers are likely more trustworthy, but I'm pretty sure they don't all do much due diligence on hoard coins. Perhaps someone mixed the labels up, or perhaps someone is trying to make their coin more saleable. Who knows. If the dealer has an old ticket that names the hoard or it has been in auction catalogues going back towards the date of the hoard find, all the better. Sometimes, there's provenance back to a very respectable collector, who is more likely to have checked or had privileged access to the hoard e.g. Lord Stewartby, Ken Bressett or RP Mack.

You should also check PAS for the make up of the hoard. I've seen coins advertised by respectable dealers as coming from hoards that didn't include coins from that emperor, and even hoards that don't exist. Perhaps someone along the line made it up, or wrote the wrong name on the card, which the dealer reproduces without research. Sometimes, the patina on a coin will match the hoard e.g. you can spot coins from East Harptree or Nether Compton just by looking at them.

The further down this list you go, the less sure it is to be correct. But there aren't huge numbers of falsely-labelled hoard coins out there...yet. They seem to be attracting a premium now (which they wouldn't not that long ago) so there's an incentive to mis-label.

Edited September 11, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Thanks.  I'd just like an inexpensive example from a named hoard.   I'll search your suggestions.

[Agrippa]

2 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

It depends.

Ideally, you want a dealer who bought the original hoard or a significant portion of it, or is selling it on behalf of the finders e.g. Sebastian Sondermann Numismatics and the 2011 Pamphill Hoard, or Victor's Imperial Coins and the 1833 Mildenhall Hoard. In the past, many dealers have done the same.

There are dealers not on VCoins who sell whole hoards recently discovered e.g. Silbury Coins.

Otherwise, you need a dealer who can prove the provenance i.e. give a link to the Portable Antiquities Scheme record and for there to be a photo of the coin (not just a description). For example, Noonans auctioned the Vale of Pewsey Hoard as a whole (which in itself is great provenance) and you can see identifiable photos of the coins on the PAS page for the hoard.

Personally, I wouldn't buy any coins from the West Norfolk (aka Grimston) Hoard without seeing a photo of the coin on one of the many PAS pages, which are listed at the top of this thread.

Sometimes you can find the original hoard sale, and see the specific coin in the sale. An example would be the East Harptree Hoard, which was sold by Spink in 2016 and the coins are almost all identifiable. The Vale of Pewsey Hoard mentioned above is on the Noonans website.

Beyond that, you're down to trust, both in the dealer and the person who sold the coin to the dealer. VCoins dealers are likely more trustworthy, but I'm pretty sure they don't all do much due diligence on hoard coins. Perhaps someone mixed the labels up, or perhaps someone is trying to make their coin more saleable. Who knows. If the dealer has an old ticket that names the hoard or it has been in auction catalogues going back towards the date of the hoard find, all the better. Sometimes, there's provenance back to a very respectable collector, who is more likely to have checked or had privileged access to the hoard e.g. Lord Stewartby, Ken Bressett or RP Mack.

You should also check PAS for the make up of the hoard. I've seen coins advertised by respectable dealers as coming from hoards that didn't include coins from that emperor, and even hoards that don't exist. Perhaps someone along the line made it up, or wrote the wrong name on the card, which the dealer reproduces without research. Sometimes, the patina on a coin will match the hoard e.g. you can spot coins from East Harptree or Nether Compton just by looking at them.

The further down this list you go, the less sure it is to be correct. But there aren't huge numbers of falsely-labelled hoard coins out there...yet. They seem to be attracting a premium now (which they wouldn't not that long ago) so there's an incentive to mis-label.

The Pamphill hoard was originally sold by CNG; auction 103, lot 1295.

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Agrippa

[John Conduitt]

10 minutes ago, Agrippa said:

The Pamphill hoard was originally sold by CNG; auction 103, lot 1295.

 

Yes to Sondermann, who've been cleaning the coins. I believe they have a fair few to go yet.

Victor's 1833 Mildenhall Hoard coins came as a single lot from CNG.

The Thruxton Hoard was sold together by Roma.

They were bought by dealers to disperse the individual coins.

Edited September 11, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Agrippa]

Earlier this year CNG auctioned The English Bicknor, Gloucestershire Hoard of Antoniniani.

 

[John Conduitt]

2 hours ago, Agrippa said:

Earlier this year CNG auctioned The English Bicknor, Gloucestershire Hoard of Antoniniani.

Yes I wonder who bought it. I haven't seen any coins for sale yet.

[rhj959]

On 8/6/2022 at 3:05 PM, Victor_Clark said:

 

"Please note that this hoard [Rauceby Hoard] was excavated; a full report on the excavations is held by the Historic Environment Record, Lincoln."

https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/857468

Actually the main hoard was not excavated - the empty pot was excavated.  All the coins were removed by the finder (me) and taken away to safety, all 30Kg, in my rucksack. All the coins were handed over to the County Finds Officer on the next working day, two weeks later an excavation removed the broken pot and found a second group of 10 much earlier coins.  It was not possible to leave the main hoard in situ because the field was being harvested and several farm workers saw the hoard and it's location.  The British Museum had all the coins from 2017 to 2021 and each type was photographed in an uncleaned state. In some cases there were over 60 similar coins in the hoard eg RIC VI 6b so not all were photographed.  These images of rare types have been shared within the numismatic academia.

The BM selected about 10% of the hoard to retain (gap fillers, unique and rare types). These were independently valued by the TVC and they rewarded the finders and land owner. Nearly 2800 were disclaimed!  My Rauceby Hoard coins now appear on Ebay, Roma, Naville and CNG and I am pleased that these pieces of history end up in the hands of enthusiasts everywhere.

With hindsight perhaps I could have stored all my sold coin images.  I probably have pictures of about 80% of the 180 I have already sold, in my defence I am a terrible coin photographer, as my ebay pages demonstrate. 

[John Conduitt]

34 minutes ago, rhj959 said:

Actually the main hoard was not excavated - the empty pot was excavated.  All the coins were removed by the finder (me) and taken away to safety, all 30Kg, in my rucksack. All the coins were handed over to the County Finds Officer on the next working day, two weeks later an excavation removed the broken pot and found a second group of 10 much earlier coins.  It was not possible to leave the main hoard in situ because the field was being harvested and several farm workers saw the hoard and it's location.  The British Museum had all the coins from 2017 to 2021 and each type was photographed in an uncleaned state. In some cases there were over 60 similar coins in the hoard eg RIC VI 6b so not all were photographed.  These images of rare types have been shared within the numismatic academia.

The BM selected about 10% of the hoard to retain (gap fillers, unique and rare types). These were independently valued by the TVC and they rewarded the finders and land owner. Nearly 2800 were disclaimed!  My Rauceby Hoard coins now appear on Ebay, Roma, Naville and CNG and I am pleased that these pieces of history end up in the hands of enthusiasts everywhere.

With hindsight perhaps I could have stored all my sold coin images.  I probably have pictures of about 80% of the 180 I have already sold, in my defence I am a terrible coin photographer, as my ebay pages demonstrate. 

Very interesting. I love the photos, it really brings it to life. It must have been a little awkward with the farm workers around!

What proportion of the 2800 are left?

[rhj959]

As this thread is about British hoards here is my own favourite coin from the Rauceby Hoard.   It has a couple of special things about it.  Firstly it is the only LON coin with an unbroken POPVLI, secondly the LON is not horizontal which I like.  It also has plenty of silvering.  I believe it will be a plate coin in the next edition of 'The London Mint of Constantius and Constantine'.   It is, of course, the first of the LON coins minted.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by rhj959

[rhj959]

22 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Very interesting. I love the photos, it really brings it to life. It must have been a little awkward with the farm workers around!

What proportion of the 2800 are left?

Probably about 2500 John

[Heliodromus]

37 minutes ago, rhj959 said:

As this thread is about British hoards here is my own favourite coin from the Rauceby Hoard. 

Interesting that the BM let that one go and kept this one without silvering instead:

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_2022-4018-2

Maybe it wasn't apparent how nice it was before cleaning? Do you happen to have a "before" pic?

 

[rhj959]

I don't but before they are cleaned it is hard to judge how they turn out. I agree, surely it was a mistake not to keep my 1a.

[John Conduitt]

12 minutes ago, rhj959 said:

I don't but before they are cleaned it is hard to judge how they turn out. I agree, surely it was a mistake not to keep my 1a.

Yes it's interesting. I presume it's because they already have a similar RIC 1a and clearly they're not worried about quality. Still, they kept a lot of Rauceby coins - quite a lot seem to be not in RIC, 'var' or 'cf', but surely they had some of them already too.

[Agrippa]

2 hours ago, rhj959 said:

Actually the main hoard was not excavated - the empty pot was excavated.  All the coins were removed by the finder (me) and taken away to safety, all 30Kg, in my rucksack. All the coins were handed over to the County Finds Officer on the next working day, two weeks later an excavation removed the broken pot and found a second group of 10 much earlier coins.  It was not possible to leave the main hoard in situ because the field was being harvested and several farm workers saw the hoard and it's location.  The British Museum had all the coins from 2017 to 2021 and each type was photographed in an uncleaned state. In some cases there were over 60 similar coins in the hoard eg RIC VI 6b so not all were photographed.  These images of rare types have been shared within the numismatic academia.

The BM selected about 10% of the hoard to retain (gap fillers, unique and rare types). These were independently valued by the TVC and they rewarded the finders and land owner. Nearly 2800 were disclaimed!  My Rauceby Hoard coins now appear on Ebay, Roma, Naville and CNG and I am pleased that these pieces of history end up in the hands of enthusiasts everywhere.

With hindsight perhaps I could have stored all my sold coin images.  I probably have pictures of about 80% of the 180 I have already sold, in my defence I am a terrible coin photographer, as my ebay pages demonstrate. 

Whow amazing finding such a hoard! Thanks for sharing