Adventures in post-Carolingian monograms of the 10th and 11th centuries.

[antwerpen2306]

very interesting discussion on the evolution of the languages. It is very complicated, if not impossible, to go find out the evolution. Let's take the name  Hludwig, in Latin Ludovicus, in French Louis, in German Ludwig and in Flemish Lodewijk, first name of my father. Every people has is own interpretation and pronunciation of a name. Sometimes it is simply a translation of the word, here in Belgium we have the town named in French Mons and in Flemish Bergen. Un mont = een berg. You have also old Celtic and most German names who have evolved  in the modern names of towns and often it is difficult or nearly impossible to give a correct explication. Often there is also a more humorous explication : the name of the town of Antwerp, Antverpia in Latin, Anvers en Français and Antwerpen in het Vlaams. The town didn't exist in Roman times, it was only a very small place without importance as excavations, dating to Roman time show. It is only in the beginning of the Middle Age the place took some importance as harbour and well situated for ferryboats. So one of the official explications for the name is ( I use modern words) aan de werf : on the warf. But there is a legend saying in Roman times there was a gigant Antigon who taxed all boat on the river. A Roman officer Brabo killed him , cutted off his right hand andthrowed it over the river. In Flemish : hij (he) werpt (werpen= to throw)) de hand = Ant werpen....

Looking the coins, I have, I have 2 coins, very similar to these of @Tejas

+ CARLUS REX FR , + MET+ULO ,22 m , 1,5 gr , 7 uur, Prou,699/701

and

 

Ag obool,+ HLYDOVVICVS IMP; + XPISTANAPELIGIO, 18 mm , 0,91 gr , 12 uur, Prou,1002 (denarius)

Not Xristana and Peligio.

[Anaximander]

On 12/1/2023 at 10:36 AM, ela126 said:

Some monogram pieces I have. ...Charles the Bald - Soissons  I have an attribution number: 1435 but not sure what that is. I notice the monogram has the bottom L facing left, not right.

The attribution 1435 is to James Roberts, Silver Coins of Medieval France, #1435 = Gariel plate XXXV #248. These both have a normal-facing L in the KAROLVS monogram, so yours is a variant.  Another attribution: M&G 805 (on page 204), who cites Prou 278-281 and Gariel 248.  

Edited May 9 by Anaximander
PS: Yes, I'm catching up on some of your posts. I only joined numisforums last month.

[ela126]

1 hour ago, Anaximander said:

The attribution 1435 is to James Roberts, Silver Coins of Medieval France, #1435 = Gariel plate XXXV #248. These both have a normal-facing L in the KAROLVS monogram, so yours is a variant.  Another attribution: M&G 805 (on page 204), who cites Prou 278-281 and Gariel 248.  

Thanks for this guidance. I don’t have a lot of experience here. Appreciate it 

[Anaximander]

A latecomer to this post, I'll head back to the original topic: the Carolingian monograms in the 10th & 11th centuries were from the later kings and emperors. Which kings and emperors, you ask? Why, just a handful: Charles the Simple, Louis IV and V, and Lothaire.  Some of the many immobilized types of Charles the Bald would surface in this period, too.  

The Robertines fall outside the Carolingian genealogical tree, and Oddo is 9th century, and Robert (his brother), may or may not have issued coins. The Robertine king Raoul did issue some interesting monogram coins; I'll share mine below. 


First among my coins, and my latest purchase, was sold as Charles the Bald, but is most likely an issue under Charles the Simple, as described by Simon Coupland when selling his exemple. This type features a Karolus monogram and -rather unusually- a badly blundered Christiana religio legend. (X✠RI˙Λ˙ IIΛ REIIϽIO). Coupland attributes it to a mint at Langres.  Similar examples: Gariel ("Charles") pl.45 #69 (XRIΛIIΛ IICIO)-70 (XPIΛIIΛ PIIICIO); Prou 1067 (XPIΛИΛ REIICIO)-1068 (XRIΛIIΛ IICIO); Roberts SCMF (Chas. the Bald or Simple) #1287 [S] (XRIΛIIΛ IICIO). 

Second is a posthumous denier of Raoul, featuring a Rudolfus monogram. Not a monogram one sees often. It's a weak strike, and another blundered legend, omitting the REX.

Last is an immobilized type of Charles the Bald, possibly from the reign of Louis IV, featuring a Karolus monogram.

Edited May 10 by Anaximander