Phil Anthos Posted January 25 · Member Share Posted January 25 I'm sorry, my comment was questioning the statement that most AEs are smoothed. That seems like a wide generalization that does doesn't fit my experience. Or maybe I just misunderstood. ~ Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idesofmarch01 Posted January 25 · Member Share Posted January 25 5 minutes ago, Phil Anthos said: I'm sorry, my comment was questioning the statement that most AEs are smoothed. That seems like a wide generalization that does doesn't fit my experience. Or maybe I just misunderstood. ~ Peter You're right -- I misunderstood. My statement that most AEs have been "smoothed" -- according to my definition of "smoothing" -- is based on two observations: (1) debris and detritus will form on the surfaces of essentially 100% of AEs unless the AEs have been submerged in, say, a river; and (2) at least some of this debris and detritus is usually removed during cleaning, leaving the center of the fields of the AEs smoother-appearing than the sections of the fields that are closer to devices and legends. Again, it's inappropriate to sidetrack this thread but I've also been told by dealers and experts that smoothing of AEs is typical and common. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted July 3 · Supporter Share Posted July 3 I was most intrigued by this thread. Has the investigation of the coin been completed? Is it genuine or fake? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonW Posted July 3 · Member Share Posted July 3 45 minutes ago, Rand said: I was most intrigued by this thread. Has the investigation of the coin been completed? Is it genuine or fake? I asked Naville to send it to NGC, but they didn't agree, fearing that the coin might be rejected because of the "smoothing/tooling" on the obverse (not the reverse, sic!). Instead, they said they'd send it to the IBSCC, which I agreed to because my main concern was authenticity, not some smoothing/tooling on the obverse. When I asked them about the outcome a few months later, the answer was "they took the coin for a while and then they sent it back as they are doing only authenticy or fake, not really how much has been engraved". Very inconclusive, to say the least. I'm not sure if they really sent it there as I asked them several times for a submission receipt, an official answer or something, but never got an answer. I then asked them to send the coin to me personally, which they did. I received it just a few weeks ago. The coin looks perfectly fine in hand. It's smoothed, of course, but there's no tooling visible at all. I will show it to two experts here in Switzerland shortly. If they are sure the coin is good, I will keep it. If they have the slightest doubt, I will send it to NGC for a final verdict. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted July 3 · Supporter Share Posted July 3 Thank you. It would be good to know the outcome. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonW Posted July 3 · Member Share Posted July 3 4 minutes ago, Rand said: Thank you. It would be good to know the outcome. Absolutely, I will certainly post it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted July 3 · Member Share Posted July 3 (edited) On 1/25/2024 at 11:25 AM, Phil Anthos said: I'm sorry, my comment was questioning the statement that most AEs are smoothed. That seems like a wide generalization that does doesn't fit my experience. Or maybe I just misunderstood. ~ Peter The statement was actually true, vast majority are smoothed and tooled Edited July 3 by El Cazador 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted July 7 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 7 On 7/3/2024 at 12:50 PM, El Cazador said: The statement was actually true, vast majority are smoothed and tooled I might buy the contention that the vast majority are smoothed -- particularly when it comes to sestertii in the first couple of centuries CE, especially the more expensive specimens; I'm not sure anyone bothers with most LRB's! -- but to say the vast majority are also tooled is going way beyond what the evidence supports. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted July 7 · Member Share Posted July 7 21 minutes ago, DonnaML said: I might buy the contention that the vast majority are smoothed -- particularly when it comes to sestertii in the first couple of centuries CE, especially the more expensive specimens; I'm not sure anyone bothers with most LRB's! -- but to say the vast majority are also tooled is going way beyond what the evidence supports. Please refer to coin archives Donna to support your statement, and yes, i was referring to Sester, Dup, Ae of 1-3 centuries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted July 7 · Supporter Share Posted July 7 22 minutes ago, El Cazador said: Please refer to coin archives Donna to support your statement, and yes, i was referring to Sester, Dup, Ae of 1-3 centuries What do you offer to support your statement? You're not even saying a large percentage, but rather that a vast majority of AE's are tooled. What are we talking about, 80, 90, 95% ? Where is your evidence for that? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edessa Posted July 7 · Supporter Share Posted July 7 We all have different definitions of cleaned, smoothed and tooled. Some people really do study art history. Some people study ancient coin dies and can tell if something doesn't look correct, even if they can't put their finger on it. These guys get hired by grading companies. Most of us other humans are happy if the design is pleasant and not obviously contrived by someone who didn't have a clue. Smoothed and cleaned are synonymous for some people. Tooled can be an opinion if you haven't done a die study of the issue in question. Some coin dealers follow the practice of Real Estate brokers and Used Car dealers. They don't mention defects and will even deny defects when directly asked. If you want to collect ancient coins, learn to avoid these dealers or, at the very least, learn to form your own opinions. But at the end of the day these are just your opinions. El Cazador, if you want to make blanket statements like this, you better damned well have a lot of hard evidence to back up your statement. Otherwise, it's just an opinion like anyone else's. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted July 7 · Supporter Share Posted July 7 @El Cazador If we are to go by archived sales listings, ACSearch brings up 928,675 results for the search "ae", 5,825 for the search "ae smoothed", and 1,290 for the search "ae smoothed tooled" - not quite a vast majority... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted July 7 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 7 42 minutes ago, El Cazador said: Please refer to coin archives Donna to support your statement, and yes, i was referring to Sester, Dup, Ae of 1-3 centuries It's not my burden to prove a negative. Your claim is the extraordinary one, and as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted July 7 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 7 15 minutes ago, CPK said: @El Cazador If we are to go by archived sales listings, ACSearch brings up 928,675 results for the search "ae", 5,825 for the search "ae smoothed", and 1,290 for the search "ae smoothed tooled" - not quite a vast majority... To be fair, that analysis presumes complete honesty and full disclosure on the part of all auction houses. I'm not sure that the evidence supports that kind of presumption, either! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted July 7 · Member Share Posted July 7 1 hour ago, CPK said: @El Cazador If we are to go by archived sales listings, ACSearch brings up 928,675 results for the search "ae", 5,825 for the search "ae smoothed", and 1,290 for the search "ae smoothed tooled" - not quite a vast majority... Good point, but as Donna indicated most sellers/ auction houses avoid indicating issues with coins, unless, of course, you are top 5 AHs… We can conduct an experiment here, try listing 10 random unslabbed good quality AE or Dupondii, Sestertii at least xf or better quality, how many of these you think will be smoothed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted July 7 · Supporter Share Posted July 7 8 hours ago, DonnaML said: To be fair, that analysis presumes complete honesty and full disclosure on the part of all auction houses. I'm not sure that the evidence supports that kind of presumption, either! I agree, but evidently @El Cazador considers it good enough for our purposes. And in any case, I think the point still stands - El Cazador's claim is a ridiculous exaggeration. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted July 7 · Member Share Posted July 7 1 hour ago, CPK said: I agree, but evidently @El Cazador considers it good enough for our purposes. And in any case, I think the point still stands - El Cazador's claim is a ridiculous exaggeration. Why don’t u post your bronze sestertii / ae/dupondii here and we can judge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Atherton Posted July 7 · Member Author Share Posted July 7 37 minutes ago, El Cazador said: Why don’t u post your bronze sestertii / ae/dupondii here and we can judge? Kangaroo court? 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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