This Coin Changed Me as a Collector

[kirispupis]

Edit: Unfortunately, based on further research from @khaghogh, most of my research below is false. This is not an issue from Mykonos but is far more likely one of Skamadreia. 😞 You may still read my thought process below, but it was based off a false conclusion.

 

Recently, I was perusing an auction when I noticed this coin. The coin is in my possession, but I'm using the seller's photo for now because I'm too excited to wait for the weekend when I'll photograph and process it. I'm including the seller's attribution.

Caria. Myous circa 400-380 BC.
Bronze Æ
9 mm, 0,95 g
Very Fine

 

It caught my interest because I happen to have a soft spot for "MY" coinage and I've been working up to write something more considerable on the subject. My feeling is the vast majority of "MY" coins aren't Myos, but are in fact Myndos, with some from other cities. I still need to do more research on find spots and history to be more precise, but a different issue intrigued me.

So, if it wasn't from Myos, where was it from? Well, I had an idea there too. As you may know, I have a target list and some time ago I researched the remaining coins there and have a small database with types. Therefore, my first thought was this looked awfully similar to those of Mykonos.

Here are some examples:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7852939
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3172713

The grapes and MY lettering matched, but there were some serious differences:

• All the examples I found contained MY-KO, not just MY
• They also included a barley grain
• And my obverse didn't match at all. All the examples I found had Dionysos, while this looked closer to Apollo

Those are pretty big differences, so I tried a different avenue. Next to Apollo there is a clear ΔΗ. Hmm...I wonder where I can go with that. My first thought was it's a city name. So, I opened up my Hansen & Nielsen Lexique Poleis, which has a handy appendix listing cities by their inscriptions. There was only one match for these two letters: Delos.

Now, I was more than intrigued. I currently have a coin from Delos.

Cyclades, Delos
ca. 280 - 166 BCE
AE 9mm 0.56g
Laureate head of Apollo right /
Δ-Η, lyre.
cf. SNG Cop. 668

 

Their coinage depicts both Apollo and uses the abbreviation Δ-Η. It also happens to be right next to Mykonos. Indeed, when I visited Mykonos last year we did Delos in a day trip. The ferry takes about 40 minutes if I recall.

I researched information on any Synoikismos with Mykonos and found this article by Gary Reger. Most of this article concerns a combination of Mykonos and Palaiokastro (both of which I had the opportunity to visit). The article contains a number of nuggets such as:

1. Mykonos borrowed money from Apollo on Delos in 393 BCE and again from 377-374 BCE. Could this coin have something to do with that?
2. A number of important people on Delos were Mykonians
3. Mykonos had strong ties with Delos throughout the Hellenistic period
4. I found no mention of any Synoikismos with Delos

But this passage in particular I found interesting.

From this, Mykonos did mint coins with MY. But how could that be? It was then a fact occurred to me and I realized how incredibly stupid I can be. For some time, I'd just accepted ACSearch and other online sources as the "full truth" on what coinage existed. Sure, I've run across coins that weren't there before, and I own a number of them, but I always imagined these were "unique". Yet here was a source referencing coins that were in no source I knew. I decided to investigate further.

It happens that perhaps the greatest numismatist of all time, Svoronos, was born on Mykonos. Naturally, he wrote a book about its coinage. This wasn't rocket science because Reger cited Svoronos on every numismatic detail. With some searching, I found his book. There was only one slight problem.

Svoronos wrote in Greek. I know some Greek, but have a lot of difficulties. Nevertheless, I was motivated, so using Google Translate as my friend, I plowed through it. I found this entry, which Svoronos dated to 387-378 BCE (which seems awfully specific to me).

The reverse matched my coin exactly, but the obverse still had trouble. It's quite clear that my coin does not have Dionysos. I looked at the plates. The size is also similar - 8mm on Svoronos' coin vs 9mm for mine.

I believe I'm a victim of a bad copy of a bad copy, but the reverse certainly looks like my coin if you go along with the description, which says "M-Y with grapes made of pellets". However, what I can see here is the obverse of Svoronos' coin was badly off center. He mentioned it was in Berlin, so I checked on the site for the Münzkabinett, since their collection is digital, but I found no listing for this coin or any coin from Mykonos.

My suspicion is this is either the same type as my coin or a variant. Due to the off center obverse, it would have been easy to make a mistake on the identification. If this was the best image Svoronos had, IMHO it would have been impossible to make a definite match. He probably listed Dionysos because that's what the other coins had.

All of this information led me to be sure I was dealing with a coin from Mykonos. Now it came to procuring it! Did someone else know? I placed a very small bid, then the largest proxy bid I'd ever placed on a coin. Coins from the Cyclades are easily the toughest to procure - worse than even Crete. I have a number, but I'd lost out on my last four attempts.

Not only that, but of all my target coins, there were three that I really wanted. Of those three, one came up last year and another came up twice. I put very strong bids each time and lost all three. Yet I'd never found an example of Mykonos at auction. It was the other one of the three. Note that you may think Santorini/Thera is in that group, but I've only found archaic coins from them and I rarely add archaic coins. Therefore it's not even a priority unless I find one at a steal, though I've been trying to discover whether they minted any 4th century bronze coinage. It would certainly make sense, since so many Cyclades cities minted during the 4th-3rd centuries and Thera was a major power among them. But I digress.

Would someone else pick up on it? If properly identified, I stood no chance. In today's market there's really no chance of picking up a Mykonos example for under $2k. Even when I've bid $2k I've lost on similarly rare + famous cities. Each day I checked the listings and my bid of 1 Euro remained. The morning of the auction arrived and I was up to 3 Euros.

Could this be some magical moment where I pick up a stunning coin for 20 Euros? I imagined it, but I knew many bidders would wait. That morning, despite my coin coming up later, I watched the auction from the beginning. As mine drew closer, I became very nervous. Did someone else know?

Mine came up, and my initial bid was quickly bypassed by another proxy and the bids started flying. I hate that moment on Biddr when you see someone flying through the numbers. At least on places like Roma or Leu they put me out of my misery quickly. I feel like reaching through the Internet, grabbing whoever it is by the throat, and screaming "that's my coin! Get the <bleep> off!" but of course I did scream and it didn't work initially, but then the bidding stopped.

At about 10% of what I was willing to pay, he/she backed off and I had won. It was such an amazing euphoria.

I must admit that I'm jealous whenever @Ryroshows off some incredibly rare coin from Delphi where he paid $20 or when @David Atherton displays a unique Roman bronze that he bought for $25 and there's only one other copy in a museum and his is better. I do have rare coins, but my typical post is - take a look at this incredibly rare coin that's worth $300 and I got for $500!

Sure, I have no desire to sell any of my coins and I collect for passion and not for profit, but I'm aware that my collection is probably worth less than what I paid on the open market. But this time I did find something rare and, though I paid more than $25, I still got a very good bargain.

The following is my new attribution.

Cyclades, Mykonos
Mutual issue with Delos
393-374 BCE
Æ 9mm, 0,95g
Svoronos Mykonos 1893 Γ.11 Plate X.13 var(?)

Since there doesn't appear to be any evidence for a Synoikismos with Delos, it appears more likely this coin was related to the borrowing of money by Mykonos from Apollo Delos. Could this have been how that money was issued? I'm not really sure, but these dates and Svoronos' match. There's probably a better numismatic term for the arrangement, but I don't know it.

More research remains to be done. Svoronos discusses a lot more in his paper, but I'm not able to read the Greek without difficulty. Luckily, someone made an English translation of the entire book. The only issue is it's only available in Greece (doesn't make much sense, does it? You'd think they wouldn't need the translation). Nevertheless, I found a bookstore that has it and the translation is on its (slow) way to me.

Now, dealing with how this has changed me: this coin has shook me to a core. It has taught me how much I really don't know. In particular, I've learned the following.

• In the past, I bought a coin and then researched it. Instead, I should research the coins I want. Once I fully understand a coinage I'll be far more effective on the market. I should have known that already, since I've greatly benefited from buying + reading books on the coinage of Kea and Samaria.
• It's time I learned Greek. Yeah, I can read the letters fine and I know some grammar and words, but I need to be able to actually read and understand it. I intend to begin to rectify that later this year. I should at least understand modern Greek. It's ok if I have trouble with the Doric dialect, etc.
• I need to really know coinage beyond just being familiar with what's sold. Many of the more interesting coins have no examples on the market.

Finally, as I mentioned, we visited both Mykonos and Delos last year. Here are some of my photos of Mykonos. It's most famous for its windmills, but also has a very cute town.

And here's Delos, where in mythology Apollo and Artemis were born. Today it's occupied by a lot of friendly cats. We climbed to the top of the hill in the photo.

 

Feel free to show any coins that changed you or anything you feel is appropriate!

 

Edited January 27 by kirispupis

[David Atherton]

This is a great post! A detective story and travelogue combined with a sweet coin. 

Almost tops any of my $25 rarities. 😉 Congrats!

 

 

[Ryro]

Wahoo! Way to go on your incredible/ affordable rarity. Great write up and impressive research. And amazing photography. 

Svoronos may have said that it was Dionysos on the obverse due to the grapes on the reverse, as well as the head being mostly off flan. I agree that yours looks like Apollo. 

You have more faith in these auction houses than I do. I won't set large amounts for prebids. I just don't trust that I won't end up getting maxed out by the auction house. 

To keep with the grapes theme, here's a MSC of Demetrios Poliorketes with a bunch of grapes between the bushel and helmet:

Edited January 26 by Ryro

[Deinomenid]

2 hours ago, kirispupis said:

my typical post is - take a look at this incredibly rare coin that's worth $300 and I got for $500!

That’s very funny! Many congratulations on the coin. And a coin accompanied by your photographs cannot be a bad read! Stunning shots.

Re Apollo or Dionysos it might be worth mentioning that to many Greeks they were interchangeable. Nietzsche really did a number here by separating them so in our modern minds. Some of the “nonstandard” theogonies especially on the Orphic side have almost odd connections. That may be of little value here but I thought I’d throw it out just in case.

 

 

 

Edited January 26 by Deinomenid
Typo

[CPK]

Congratulations on such a fantastic acquisition, and also great detective work! You earned it. 😉 

 

[ajax]

3 hours ago, kirispupis said:

Svoronos wrote in Greek. I know some Greek, but have a lot of difficulties. Nevertheless, I was motivated, so using Google Translate as my friend, I plowed through it.

I believe I'm a victim of a bad copy of a bad copy, but the reverse certainly looks like my coin if you go along with the description, which says "M-Y with grapes made of pellets". 

Unfortunately I can't offer any help in attributing the coin but I believe you somehow got lost in the Google translation as what you tried to translate is not modern Greek. It reads M-Y grapes in a dotted border. A dotted border is described also for the other side. 

[kirispupis]

59 minutes ago, ajax said:

Unfortunately I can't offer any help in attributing the coin but I believe you somehow got lost in the Google translation as what you tried to translate is not modern Greek. It reads M-Y grapes in a dotted border. A dotted border is described also for the other side. 

ευχαριστώ! I don't see much of a dotted border on their plate, though mine does seem to have a dotted border on both sides. It's a bit tough, because it could just be edge gunk.

What type of Greek is it?

<edit>: I can definitely see the border on the plates and definitely don't see it on my obverse, since mine is a bit off center there so the border should be visible. This appears to be some new type then.

Edited January 27 by kirispupis

[Deinomenid]

Google translate is a blessing and a curse. It insists on translating "tainia" (as in the headband seen on so many coins) as "tapeworm" in any pdf translation from  Italian.

Thus many coins are ruined in my eyes, as -say - Aphrodite wraps an elaborate tapeworm in her hair, or the hero xyz, on the obverse proudly wearing his tapeworm etc... 

[Curtis JJ]

Congratulations on the exciting find! I hope that interpretation is correct -- DH for Delos / MY for Mykonos. As someone new to the specifics, your account of this type seems plausible and makes it sound like an important contribution.

I have some MY coins to share (from Caria) and little grape-bunch bronzes (Lokris), but wanted to share this first, before I forgot.

 

Your reverse is similar to another little grape-bunch bronze attributed to Mykonos in the James H. Joy Collection catalog (M&M GmbH Auktion 21, Lot 541.b) . Supposedly it has the grain left, off flan, but this one seems a lot smaller than the usual types from Mykonos, closer to yours. Possibly also with Apollo (forward, not profile)?

"b) Kleinbronze, wie vorher. Rv. [MUKO] Traube, im Felde l. Getreidekorn, 1,13 g., Mio. S. IV, 395, 223."

NOT MY COIN!

From the bibliography at the front of the catalog, the reference is to T.E. Mionnet, Description de Médailles Antiques, Grecques et Romaines, volume IV, which was published 1829. You can find it online but that type is not illustrated. Being in Mionnet, I suspected it would be in the online catalog for the Cabinet des Médailles at the  Bibliothèque nationale de France. I tried searching Mykonos on Gallica (BnF) and got some photos, but none seemed to match that type (but some larger types). (See also results on ARCH.)

The coin looks like a facing Apollo to me. If it's really Mykonos, it might be related to yours. Personally, based on style, I wonder if that one from the Joy collection isn't related to Hekatomnid Satraps' coinage from Caria (seems to borrow from the silver Drachms/Tetradrachms), but could just be artistic borrowing/similarity.

Edited January 27 by Curtis JJ

[ajax]

6 hours ago, kirispupis said:

ευχαριστώ! I don't see much of a dotted border on their plate, though mine does seem to have a dotted border on both sides. It's a bit tough, because it could just be edge gunk.

What type of Greek is it?

<edit>: I can definitely see the border on the plates and definitely don't see it on my obverse, since mine is a bit off center there so the border should be visible. This appears to be some new type then.

It is called καθαρεύουσα and it was replaced by modern Greek (δημοτική) since nearly 50 years.

[NewStyleKing]

Collecting is a bit naff without researching. 

 

My journey, "from coin collecting to numismatist!" poorly written by me years ago on academia,edu. Sample below.

Collecting coins can be a drug but I am not an addictive personality: the soul-less activity of “yet another one” has an empty ring about it. The fact there was a brilliant book, “The New Style silver coinage of Athens”, Margaret Thompson, ANS 10 1961, that described a single series of many coin issues: add the large attractive spread flans with differing monograms, names and symbols naturally attracted me to the beautiful Athenian New Style tetradrachm.

 

Edited January 27 by NewStyleKing

[khaghogh]

The proposed attribution is a well researched hypothesis. Unfortunately, I think the coin is more likely from Skamandreia, Troas. Two examples illustrated on Asia Minor Coins are linked below.

Traces of the IDH legend (for the mountain nymph Ida) can be seen on the obverse of the second example. The S on the reverse can easily be read as a M and the K is not entirely clear and looks like a Y on the coin under discussion. Note also the A (inverted with the top pointed downward) above the branch of the pine cone, which does look like a grape bunch in this reverse die but more like a pine cone in most others.

https://www.asiaminorcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=89&pid=10801

https://www.asiaminorcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=89&pid=10802

 

[Curtis JJ]

18 hours ago, kirispupis said:

I happen to have a soft spot for "MY" coinage

Here are my favorite "MY" coins -- although the first one is actually the variety without the "MY". "MY" coins are always interesting (or frustrating) because there are so many different possibilities for the mint: Mylasa, Myndos, Myous, Mygissos, Myrina. Mykonos seems to be the only one never suggested for my first coin below!

 

MYLASA:

For those who haven't seen it, I highly recommend Koray Konuk's recent essay on these, "MY Stands for Mylasa," published in Presbeus, the Richard Ashton Festscrift. I think he makes a pretty strong case.

 

NOT MY COINS:

 

This coin comes in 2 varieties, with MY above the Dolphin, and without. Mine is "without" but the same discussions apply to it.

I bought mine because it had been published numerous times (including notable sale catalogs & collections of Erich Karl, P.R. Franke, P. Vogl) with attributions to many different mints, and so I considered it a nice illustration of this scholarly debate:

Previous attributions of this specimen, c. 1989-2021:

Myndos in Kölner Münzkabinett 49 [30 Oct 1989], Lot 27 [to PDF catalog];
Mygissos, Karl 246 in Lanz 131, [Münzen von Karien, Sammlung Erich Karl, 27 Nov 2006], 246;
Mylasa in Grün 64-1 [Sammlung Prof. Dr. Peter Robert Franke - Griechische Münzen, 20 Nov 2014], 1046;
Mylasa in Leu WA 16 [22 May 2021], 1055 (Dr. Peter Vogl Collection);
Mylasa in Historia Numorum Caria Online Temp N. 1883, example 1 (this coin);
Mylasa (this coin cited & illustrated, table 41.ε) in Dimakopoulos, Stavros. 2009. Sanctuaries and Cult of Zeus in Caria. [in Greek] Thessaloniki: Aristotle University of Thessaloniki;
Myous or Mygissos, not Myrina (this coin cited on p. 282, n8) in Lenger, Dinçer Savaş. 2016. “A New Myrinan (Aeolis) Bronze Coin?” AIIN, 62: pp. 281–286.

 

MYNDOS.

Another Carian coin from the Sammlung Eric Karl. This one, however, has the city name inscribed in full, making attribution much simpler:

Caria, Myndos AR Drachm (18mm, 3.34g, 12h), naming Apollonios, c. mid-2^nd BCE.
Obverse: Laureate head of Sarapis wearing atef. (Sometimes “Zeus laureate.”)
Reverse: ΜΥΝΔΙΩΝ / ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝΙ. Basileion, headdress of Isis upon two grain ears; below, overturned amphora.
References: This coin = Karl 266 = SNRIS Myndus 02 (a6) = HNO 2653.1 = (prob.) cited in Meadows & Zabel (Coin Hoards IX, 522: pp. 248 n. 7 & 251).
Comparanda: Two specimens prev. described in Imhoof-Blumer (1876), ZfN 3 [to PDF]: p. 326, n. 4 = Whittall (Sotheby 1867, 517 [part]); Drexler (1889) NZ 21: p. 135 α (Whittall [corr., weight]; Prokesch-Osten).
Provenance: Ex Sammlung Erich Karl (Lanz 131 [27 Nov 2006], Lot 266); Collection Laurent Bricault (Gorny-Mosch 247 [10 Mar 2017], Lot 4030); GTP Collection (CNG EA 543 [2 Aug 2023], Lot 97); Gorny 81 (3 Mar 1997), Lot 342 (probably; to be verified).

 

GRAPE BUNCH BRONZES.

Of course, grape bunches are always a charming design on Greek bronzes.

A couple years ago, I bought a handful of ones from Lokris. Not the best specimens, but that was made up for a few months ago, when I finally got around to Humphris & Delbridge's book on The Coinage of the Opoutian Lokrians and found them illustrated inside. (Some of my cheapest "plate coins" at around 13 GBP + 20% each [around $22/coin]!)

The book is only 10 years old, but something I found interesting: the coins were illustrated from plaster casts! (From the BCD Collection.)

Edited January 27 by Curtis JJ

[kirispupis]

3 hours ago, khaghogh said:

The proposed attribution is a well researched hypothesis. Unfortunately, I think the coin is more likely from Skamandreia, Troas. Two examples illustrated on Asia Minor Coins are linked below.

Traces of the IDH legend (for the mountain nymph Ida) can be seen on the obverse of the second example. The S on the reverse can easily be read as a M and the K is not entirely clear and looks like a Y on the coin under discussion. Note also the A (inverted with the top pointed downward) above the branch of the pine cone, which does look like a grape bunch in this reverse die but more like a pine cone in most others.

https://www.asiaminorcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=89&pid=10801

https://www.asiaminorcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=89&pid=10802

 

Sigh... Well, there go all my happy thoughts. 😞 

Unfortunately, though I don't want to admit it, upon further examination of other Skamandreia examples, I believe you are correct. When I photographed the coin last night, I noticed the 'I' next to the 'DH' but thought that must be some mark.

On the positive note, the amount I paid is roughly commensurate with what this issue is worth...

[kirispupis]

1 hour ago, Curtis JJ said:

MYLASA:

For those who haven't seen it, I highly recommend Koray Konuk's recent essay on these, "MY Stands for Mylasa," published in Presbeus, the Richard Ashton Festscrift. I think he makes a pretty strong case.

Yes, I agree his case is strong because it's the first mapping I've seen with find spots. I've updated my attributions, sadly with @khaghogh's finding above, and the following are my "MY" coins. The Mytilene attribution is based off my own mapping from a hoard.

Ionia, Mylasa 4th century BCE
1.2g, 12mm, 1h
Laureate head of Poseidon to right / Dolphin to right over trident; MY above.
SNG Copenhagen 1022 (Ionia); SNG Kayhan 847-848
Ex Roma 2018
 

 

IONIA, Mylasa
4th century BCE
Chalkous AE 9.5 mm, 1.08 g, 1 h
Laureate head of Poseidon to right. Rev. Dolphin leaping to right; below, trident right, anepigraphic
SNG Copenhagen 1022. SNG von Aulock 2115
Ex J. Metzger Collection

 

Ionia, Myous
Circa 400-380 BCE
Ae 0.68g 8mm
Obv: Laureate head of Apollo right within wreath.
Rev: MYH. Goose standing right within maeander pattern.
SNG Kayhan I 507-11

 

Nisyros, Islands off Caria
mid 4th-late 3rd centuries BCE
AE Chalkous 11mm 1.1g
Head of Aphrodite to right, wearing stephane.
Rev. NI Dolphin right; above, grape bunch; below, trident left.
Ashton, Nisyros, Issue 2.ii. HGC 6, 1349. SNG Copenhagen 706

 

Lesbos, Mytilene(?)
c. 3rd century BCE
Æ 9mm, 1.22g, 9h
Turreted female head r. R/
Bow and arrow.
Imhoof, KM p. 90, 3

 

Skamandreia, Troas
350-300 BCE
Æ 9mm, 0,95g
Obv.: IΔH, Head of mountain nymph Ida
Rev.: S-K-A, grape bunch
SNG Cop - , BMC 79.4, Klein -

 

Edited January 27 by kirispupis

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Is that active bronze disease?  I'd be a bit concerned.

Your passion about your collecting subject is rather delightful. 

The vacation pictures are coffee-table-book-worthy, per normal.  They're very excellent photos.  A great service would be making a handful of 1920x1080, or common PC -desktop sizes, to make a wallpaper. I especially enjoyed the colorful alley.

 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Hmm, that's strange.  I just now posted, and panning up, I don't think I've posted before in this thread, although I intended to.  Perhaps I was tagged in error?    My main fields are Roman and Byzantine, with a minor in Seleucids.  I know very little about Greek AE's.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

And reading the latest kirispupis post, my bronze disease question pertained to the seller picture.  The latest picture looks more like hard verdigris.

To be honest, the seller picture would have scared me off.  Anything bright green and I'm generally out of there.

[Curtis JJ]

8 minutes ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Is that active bronze disease?  I'd be a bit concerned.

Your passion about your collecting subject is rather delightful. 

The vacation pictures are coffee-table-book-worthy, per normal.  They're very excellent photos.  A great service would be making a handful of 1920x1080, or common PC -desktop sizes, to make a wallpaper. I especially enjoyed the colorful alley.

 

I don't think it's active corrosion / BD, just the deeper, brighter, rougher layer of patina. Pretty usual on Greek bronzes, I've noticed.

(With a deeper yet layer red copper showing in a spot or two. And higher layer of soil. Greek bronzes often seem to have more "crumbly" layers and fragile surfaces. Makes cleaning those ones very challenging.)

5 minutes ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Hmm, that's strange.  I just now posted, and panning up, I don't think I've posted before in this thread, although I intended to.  Perhaps I was tagged in error?    My main fields are Roman and Byzantine, with a minor in Seleucids.  I know very little about Greek AE's.

I think @khaghogh was the intended tag.

That really does look like grapes though and the M/S is quite deceptive! Still a great little bronze coin!

Edited January 27 by Curtis JJ

[kirispupis]

6 minutes ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Hmm, that's strange.  I just now posted, and panning up, I don't think I've posted before in this thread, although I intended to.  Perhaps I was tagged in error?    My main fields are Roman and Byzantine, with a minor in Seleucids.  I know very little about Greek AE's.

Seems like I can't manage to attribute anything right these days. 😞 I meant to tag @khaghogh.

Edited January 27 by kirispupis

[khaghogh]

2 minutes ago, Curtis JJ said:

That really does look like grapes though and the M/S is quite deceptive! Still a great little bronze coin!

It is a nice Greek bronze, particularly with the complete IDH showing on the obverse.

[NewStyleKing]

I think anyone who tackles AE's deserves a medal! Hence silver and large flans, not even hemidrachms or drachms!  But looking on Asia Minor coins I see even gold Mithradatic staters get the wrong mint!

I believe Mithradates didn't take Pergamon till 88 BC and was kicked out by Fimbria 85 BC, probably May time but a stater dated 223 = 74 BC  is said to be Pergamon mint!  That is impossible!  I see this a lot in Mithradatic coins, Pergamon this Pergamon that! He only just escaped capture by Fimbria in 85BC thanks to his pirate buddies. The other one in asia Minor coins year 4 is probably correct, but would be is last issue as king at Pergamon.

Edited January 27 by NewStyleKing

[CPK]

3 hours ago, kirispupis said:

Seems like I can't manage to attribute anything right these days. 😞 I meant to tag @khaghogh.

Sorry! Those little Greek AE's must be among the most difficult to properly attribute - tiny, spare, and often in rough shape. I am still impressed with the research you did, even if it didn't turn out to be what you thought. The hunt continues, I suppose! 🙂