Father's Byzantine / Ancient Coin Collection

[Bonshaw]

@Jims,Coins, great, thanks for all of the details, and for posting your coin! The difference in coloration between your photo and the seller's photo is remarkable. 

You call it a "AE Follis - Silverdenar". Now I'm confused. Bronze and silver? [EDIT: @Jims,Coins explains below that "Silverdenar" is the name of the seller, the coin is AE Follis.]

My camera setup takes much nicer photographs than my cell phone, but the coloration is always off (relative to my cell phone camera, which gets colors more faithfully but isn't good on details). I always spend some time color-correcting the fixed photos to try to match what the coin looks like in hand, and sometimes I can't get it quite right.

But your coin - changing the quite attractive greens to a desert patina in the photograph - borders on color fraud.

Thanks also for posting the price and date of your purchase. Your follis is in better shape, but if I inflation adjust $2.50 in 1978 to 2019 here:

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2024 (usinflationcalculator.com)

I get $9.80. So your $11.50 for a somewhat nicer coin (lacking some of the corrosion on my father's coin) seems quite comparable.

Edited April 7 by Bonshaw

[Jims,Coins]

Your coin is a Bronze Follis, Silverdenar is who I purchased the coin from. I enjoy your post of your fathers collection, I inherited alot of my fathers coins, He mostly purchased them in Turkey while he was stationed there.

[Bonshaw]

30 minutes ago, Jims,Coins said:

Your coin is a Bronze Follis, Silverdenar is who I purchased the coin from. I enjoy your post of your fathers collection, I inherited alot of my fathers coins, He mostly purchased them in Turkey while he was stationed there.

What kind of coins were in his collection? Were they mostly Byzantines and ancients from Asia Minor, found locally in Turkey?

Edited April 7 by Bonshaw

[Jims,Coins]

26 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

What kind of coins were in his collection? Were they mostly Byzantines and ancients from Asia Minor, found locally in Turkey?

Roman, Greek, Byzantine, Ancients from Asia Minor.

[Bonshaw]

45 minutes ago, Jims,Coins said:

Roman, Greek, Byzantine, Ancients from Asia Minor.

Did he collect any Lydian electrum?  That is my personal focus (not my father's, and my father's collection is really growing on me).

Edited April 7 by Bonshaw

[theotokevoithi]

Exactly what Jim coins write.

Same collector s taste as me :

It is a copper follis of constantine x and eudocia. It is the low value coinage for the people, before alexius i numismatic reform which introduced the billon low value coinage trachy. The represantations in this type of coinage is the image the emperor wanted his people to see everyday (state authority).Regarding the byzantines , it is a turbulent numismatic period of devaluations which ended with alexius i reform. Generally speaking, as years passed the follis was replaced by tetarteron and billon aspron trachy.

There are restrikes on these and they can be quite blurry. My example is one of these (and i have it for this reason).

Prices on follis remain low.

Thank you and i believe there are more trachea coins from alexius i till alexius iii in your collection. Looking forward for them to be posted.

[JeandAcre]

4 hours ago, Sol_Invictus said:

Thanks so much for sharing your father’s collection! I’ve really been enjoying following along on this thread. Regarding your dirham, you can be a bit more precise with the date. These coins all have pretty much the same text, except the date and mint, which are written in the obverse margin in roughly the 1-2 o’clock and 6 o’clock positions, respectively. I have received help on this forum in the past from the many experts here on reading these Islamic coins. I think Zeno.ru is a good web resource for this. Especially http://search.zeno.ru/dictionary.php for reading the dates.

Your father lists AH 95 as the date of the coin on the envelope, which looks about right to me, though I am no expert on this. This is the Hijri year, which counts lunar years since Muhammad left Mecca for Medina. The year AH 95 corresponds to 714-715 CE, which as @theotokevoithi notes, would place this coin as being minted just at the end of the reign of al-Walid.

Lokking forward to your next coin!

Yes, Huge thanks, especially for the Zeno link!  Looking forward to starting with the Frankish imitative dirham, which the grad student who sold it dated to 1218 CE.  ...This is Great!  Thanks again!

[JeandAcre]

On 3/17/2024 at 5:19 PM, Jims,Coins said:

https://auditoriumbooks.com/products/david-r-sear-byzantine-coins-and-their-values?variant=44467824394561&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqdqvBhCPARIsANrmZhNtQWW5LQuJEQ-soC8tbTeNpRT2YCcr6T4phwyWslc_mqpm9Jd1Yf4aAmG9EALw_wcB

This book is a must for Byzantine collectors S1962 is the coin number

https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sb/i.html

Here is an online database for Byzantine coinshttps://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj-zIiXxPyEAxVvz8IEHYBGBFMYABANGgJwdg&ase=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqdqvBhCPARIsANrmZhM4Q4exkRw3D8z7zlIjKsKDhk5LlR0-Lf60RB63O_Bchb7qdsF_tV4aAmi5EALw_wcB&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESVuD2zGzrwEIFEbTzSecA1f3gPVjcV19OylpeQ8Qgtj4LNwbPD7gCQGydcT1KjHWFSNsgrUjDB0Cqtc6jOKeK0rDX1UixZYLIgaqd-IOI3kj7LMMfyzQu&sig=AOD64_2mM6X51NydeEQ_FzOfSAOO-FxlFg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwihmv-WxPyEAxV3BUQIHdwOD_UQ9aACKAB6BAgGECY&adurl=https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj-zIiXxPyEAxVvz8IEHYBGBFMYABANGgJwdg&ase=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqdqvBhCPARIsANrmZhM4Q4exkRw3D8z7zlIjKsKDhk5LlR0-Lf60RB63O_Bchb7qdsF_tV4aAmi5EALw_wcB&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESVuD2zGzrwEIFEbTzSecA1f3gPVjcV19OylpeQ8Qgtj4LNwbPD7gCQGydcT1KjHWFSNsgrUjDB0Cqtc6jOKeK0rDX1UixZYLIgaqd-IOI3kj7LMMfyzQu&sig=AOD64_2mM6X51NydeEQ_FzOfSAOO-FxlFg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwihmv-WxPyEAxV3BUQIHdwOD_UQ9aACKAB6BAgGECY&adurl=https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj-zIiXxPyEAxVvz8IEHYBGBFMYABANGgJwdg&ase=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqdqvBhCPARIsANrmZhM4Q4exkRw3D8z7zlIjKsKDhk5LlR0-Lf60RB63O_Bchb7qdsF_tV4aAmi5EALw_wcB&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESVuD2zGzrwEIFEbTzSecA1f3gPVjcV19OylpeQ8Qgtj4LNwbPD7gCQGydcT1KjHWFSNsgrUjDB0Cqtc6jOKeK0rDX1UixZYLIgaqd-IOI3kj7LMMfyzQu&sig=AOD64_2mM6X51NydeEQ_FzOfSAOO-FxlFg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwihmv-WxPyEAxV3BUQIHdwOD_UQ9aACKAB6BAgGECY&adurl=https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj-zIiXxPyEAxVvz8IEHYBGBFMYABANGgJwdg&ase=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqdqvBhCPARIsANrmZhM4Q4exkRw3D8z7zlIjKsKDhk5LlR0-Lf60RB63O_Bchb7qdsF_tV4aAmi5EALw_wcB&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESVuD2zGzrwEIFEbTzSecA1f3gPVjcV19OylpeQ8Qgtj4LNwbPD7gCQGydcT1KjHWFSNsgrUjDB0Cqtc6jOKeK0rDX1UixZYLIgaqd-IOI3kj7LMMfyzQu&sig=AOD64_2mM6X51NydeEQ_FzOfSAOO-FxlFg&ctype=5&q=&nis=4&ved=2ahUKEwihmv-WxPyEAxV3BUQIHdwOD_UQ9aACKAB6BAgGECY&adurl=

Yowie.  Huge thanks for these links!

I've never seen copies as cheap as on ABE Books.  Byzantine (mainly from Comnenan) is sorta kinda on the peripheries of my collecting, but it would be cool to pick up some relative fluency in the whole series.

[quant.geek]

That particular coin is known to be overstruck on Anonymous follis, usually A-D types. Furthermore, the upper-half of the coin was struck independently from the lower half. This typically results in a broken or crooked labarum. Also, there are slight sub-variations that can be found on this particular type.

Byzantine Empire: Constantine X Ducas (1059-1067) Æ Follis, Constantinople ( Sear 1853; DOC 8 )

Obv: +ЄMMA NOVHA; Christ Emmanuel standing facing on footstool, wearing nimbus, pallium and colobium, holding book of Gospels with both hands; in fields, IC XC
Rev: +ΚШΝΤΔΚ ЄVΔΚΑVΓΟ; Eudocia and Constantine X standing facing, both crowned and wearing loros, holding between them labarum, with cross on shaft, resting on three steps
Dim: 27 mm, 7.43 g, 5 h

 

Overstruck on an Anonymous Follis:

Edited April 8 by quant.geek

[JeandAcre]

@Sol_Invictus, with regret, I couldn't even make sense of the Frankish imitation I was starting (instant edit:) with. 

But it easily registers that, even in the intervening three centuries,  the Kufic alphabet wouldn't have changed that dramatically.  ...Except on coins, rather than friendlier media, like manuscripts.  And, right, even regarding the location of dates and mints, the operant Ayyubid prototypes would have have had a completely different scheme from any of the early caliphates.

...Thank you, knowing that (another edit: sorry, the familiarly royal) one has that much to learn helps that much to get me up in the morning!  Having recently retired, I'm promising you, that's profoundly useful information.

Edited April 8 by JeandAcre

[Jims,Coins]

This is how my Father had his collection categorized

[Jims,Coins]

JQB #58. Smyrna - Bronze coin (AE 3/4) minted at RSIS = Siscia, Yugoslavia during the reign of CONSTANTIUS II, as Caesar, between 334 - 335 A.D. Obv. FL.IVL.CONSTANTIVS.NOB. C. Laureate, draped & cuirassed bust r. Rev. GLOR-IA.EXERC-ITVS. Two soldiers helmeted, draped, cuirassed, standing facing each other, each holding spear in outer hand and resting inner hand on shield; between them, two standards. Mintmark dot rSIS dot RCS #3986. RICVII #237 pg.456. DVM #72. LRBC #744.

Coin #58 from his Catalog #.

[Bonshaw]

On 4/9/2024 at 7:43 AM, Jims,Coins said:

This is how my Father had his collection categorized

It is fun seeing how your father organized his collection

[Bonshaw]

On 4/10/2024 at 11:25 AM, Jims,Coins said:

JQB #58. Smyrna - Bronze coin (AE 3/4) minted at RSIS = Siscia, Yugoslavia during the reign of CONSTANTIUS II, as Caesar, between 334 - 335 A.D. Obv. FL.IVL.CONSTANTIVS.NOB. C. Laureate, draped & cuirassed bust r. Rev. GLOR-IA.EXERC-ITVS. Two soldiers helmeted, draped, cuirassed, standing facing each other, each holding spear in outer hand and resting inner hand on shield; between them, two standards. Mintmark dot rSIS dot RCS #3986. RICVII #237 pg.456. DVM #72. LRBC #744.

Coin #58 from his Catalog #.

This coin is in beautiful condition, and the blue-green patina is gorgeous

[Jims,Coins]

KKB #50. Smyrna - Bronze coin (AE 3) minted at Constantinople during the reign of HONORIUS between 395 - 401 A.D. Obv. D.N.HONORIVS.P.F.AVG.  Rev. VIRTVS.EXERCITI. HONORIUS standing l., head r., holding spear and resting l. hand on shield. Victory, holding palm-branch in l. hand, crowns him. RCS #4256. RICX #61 pg. 246. LRBC #2206. DVM #44 pg.318.

[Bonshaw]

39 minutes ago, Jims,Coins said:

KKB #50. Smyrna - Bronze coin (AE 3) minted at Constantinople during the reign of HONORIUS between 395 - 401 A.D. Obv. D.N.HONORIVS.P.F.AVG.  Rev. VIRTVS.EXERCITI. HONORIUS standing l., head r., holding spear and resting l. hand on shield. Victory, holding palm-branch in l. hand, crowns him. RCS #4256. RICX #61 pg. 246. LRBC #2206. DVM #44 pg.318.

I love that you are posting your father's coins here too. This one also has a beautiful patina.

 

[Jims,Coins]

When`s the next coin? i' ll stop posting my fathers coins and let you post yours.

[Bonshaw]

Happy Sunday! It is time for the next coin from my father's collection, #6/83. An older coin, a denarius from the Roman republic, caught my attention.

First, I'd like to thank everyone for the amazing information and details they provided about last week's follis, including @Jims,Coins, @theotokevoithi, and @quant.geek. And I very much enjoyed the tangential discussions that were spawned.

Coin: 6/83

Ruler: Roman Republic, 89-88 BC

Identification: S 217 (from the dealer's coin flip)

I found this in my father's 1st edition Sear "Roman Coins and their values," 1964, with this info: 

"C. Vibius C.f. Pansa (89-88 BC) Laur. hd. of Apollo r., PANSA behind, symbol beow chin. R. Minerva in quadriga r., C. VIBIUS C.F. in ex. B.1" listed as value 50/- in VF (the dealer listed this coin as F)

Type: AG Denarius

Location: unlisted

Weight: 3.415 g

Width: 19.0 mm

Height: 19.0 mm

Thickness (flan): 1.57 mm

Purchase date: July 29, 1971

Vendor: Alfred Szego, Box 427, Oakdale, N.Y. 11769

Purchase price: $8.50 (+ 0.30 p/h + 0.35 "special handling" - the latter for faster delivery, apparently)

I googled Alfred Szego, he was a fascinating guy. He is widely published in botany and numismatics; in Botany, he was an expert on American chestnut blight, a topic that I find extremely interesting. But that is a rabbit trail...

Here is the photo. It looks nice in hand, with some mellow luster, and some black encrustations:

Here is the envelope that it came in:

 

And here is the invoice:

And finally, here is the notecard my father wrote to accompany the coin:

I love that quadriga!  Now I'll be researching chariot racing, and also figuring out what PANSA means...

Thanks everyone for posting related coins, historical notes, numismatic details, everything that is making this journey rediscovering my father's collection so rewarding.

Edited April 15 by Bonshaw

[theotokevoithi]

A decent denarius, which belongs to the historical context of roman civil unrest period.

Botanics is closely related to numismatics, using advanced taxonomy methods in order to recognise the plants based on their characteristics.

It was common for botanists during their expeditions to record the history of a place and the people.

[Bonshaw]

Happy Sunday!  Unfortunately, I'll have a week delay in posting coin #7/83 of my father's collection. I'm up against some deadlines. As I said at the beginning, I would post *less than* a coin a week (because of life). I'll be back at it next week.

[theotokevoithi]

The coins are not in a rush, they are waiting 1000 years patiently. :)

[Bonshaw]

1 hour ago, theotokevoithi said:

The coins are not in a rush, they are waiting 1000 years patiently. 🙂

This is excellent context

[JeandAcre]

@Bonshaw, I'm sure plenty of us speak 'real life' fluently!  (Even yours truly, even if my posting sometimes verges on OCD.)

[Bonshaw]

Happy Weekend! I've been itching to get back to this series. It is time for the next coin from my father's collection, #7/83. This time, what caught my attention was a 1/2 follis of Constantine V, Leo IV, and Leo III.

Coin: 7/83

Ruler: Byzantine, Constantine V? (there are a couple of Leos on there too), 751-775 AD?

Identification: BMC 45 and SAB PL XL #19 (from the dealer's coin folder)

Type: 1/2 follis, or "reduced" follis?

Location: unlisted

Weight: 2.404 g

Width: 19.0 mm

Height: 15.3 mm

Thickness (flan): 1.85 mm

Purchase date: Sometime in the 1970s

Vendor: Moise Penning, P.O. Box 2012, Napa, CA 94558

Purchase price: $9 (bargained down from an $11 listing?)

I have the envelope from the dealer, and notes that my father made on the back of Moise Penning's business card. Uncharacteristically, he didn't write down the date of the transaction, but since it was Napa, it would have been in the 1970s.

Here is the coin:

Here is the envelope from the dealer:

 

Here is the dealer's business card with my father's notes on the back:

And finally, here is my father's notecard giving historical context:

This week, I will look through my father's history library, and see what I can find about the 8th century.

Thanks everyone for posting related coins, history, numismatic details, and random thoughts that are making this journey so rewarding for me.

 

Edited May 4 by Bonshaw

[theotokevoithi]

Constantine V and Leo IV. 751-775 AD. AE Follis. Syracuse mint. K-LEWN to right and left of Constantine V, bearded on left, and Leo IV, beardless on right, standing facing (usually three-quarter length), each wearing crown and chlamys and holding akakia in arm across their chests; cross between their heads / LEON-DECP downwards to left and right, Leo III, bearded, half-length, standing facing, wearing crown and chlamys and holding cross potent. SB 1569, DOC 19

The effort to produce iconoclastic coins like this by the rulers was a disaster. It is an image - representation but not very much !!!

Constantine v was called copronymus by the people because he peed during baptism ceremony (shit-named). He was loved excessively !.