Modern VS Ancient Collectors

[panzerman]

On TPG slabs.....

pros/ they protect coin from improper handling/ elements/ oxidation.

cons/ grading is lax/ compared too European/ UK grading standards/ this is esp. true for hammered coins

the data labels lack detailed descriptions(I make my own precise labels)😉

Ancients vs moderns.....

For me "ancients" would be coinage struck from archiac electrum 670BC too Mehmet II's conquest of Constantinople in 1453.

The Medieval/ Renaissance/ Baroque/ Rococo/ Victorian eras produced some of the most beautifull classical designs/ even from 1900- present many nations struck classical type coins/ UK kept the Pistrucci style gold coinage.

Pet peeves....

Some nations/ Canada/ Germany/ Switzerland/ Australia to name a few/ produce God awfull looking crap/ "colored" coins/ Superman/ stupid designs. Little wonder most collectors get into older coins.

Most coins/ came into this World as MS hammered/ milled struck exs. Over time improper handling / use in commerce/ fires/ wars/ weather events took its toll. Thus few coins remain perfect FDC/ MS. Even some proof struck coins were handling thus knocking them down too below MS or details grade. In my world/ all high grade coins should be admired "eyes" only/ no touching with bare fingers.

Dumb & dumber.....

Those idiots that holed certain coins/ like the Bulgarian AV 4 Dukaten of Ferdinand I/ Boris III (cannot find any without that problem! Also is a EID MAR Aureus with a hole punched thru it🙃

Also the dingbat aristocrats that etched their own "value marks" on higher Dukaten coinage/ "X" on 10 Dukaten/ seen "XXV" on Salzburg AV 25 Dukaten from 1612 ex. makes you cringe.

[NathanB]

The particular characters in this meme (and in many others) always strike me as somehow related to white supremacy.  Does anyone know anything about their origin?  I love memes, but I will never bite if I see these characters.

[DonnaML]

17 minutes ago, NathanB said:

The particular characters in this meme (and in many others) always strike me as somehow related to white supremacy.  Does anyone know anything about their origin?  I love memes, but I will never bite if I see these characters.

I don't think there's anything objectionable about the text, but I concede that the illustrations do give off a bit of a "weak, squirrelly, bespectacled soyboys vs. clear-eyed, manly, bearded, defenders of the glories of Western civilization" vibe. 

Edited April 4 by DonnaML

[NathanB]

Ah-ha! Found it--a blog post I read some months ago, from none other than the truly hilarious "Classical Memes for Hellenistic Teens." https://csmfht.substack.com/p/why-i-wont-post-wojak-memes 

The post still leaves some unanswered questions, but it's worth reading.

Note that all my comments about these "Wojak" memes that I dislike so much apply to the memes themselves, and not to those who unknowingly use them.

Edited April 4 by NathanB

[DonnaML]

23 minutes ago, NathanB said:

Ah-ha! Found it--a blog post I read some months ago, from none other than the truly hilarious "Classical Memes for Hellenistic Teens." https://csmfht.substack.com/p/why-i-wont-post-wojak-memes 

The post still leaves some unanswered questions, but it's worth reading.

Note that all my comments about these "Wojak" memes that I dislike so much apply to the memes themselves, and not to those who unknowingly use them.

Why is it called "Wojak"?

I find it odd that the blog post fails to mention that the primary use of Pepe the Frog has been in Jew-bashing, as in cartoons about gas chambers and the like. 

[NathanB]

2 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Why is it called "Wojak"?

I find it odd that the blog post fails to mention that the primary use of Pepe the Frog has been in Jew-bashing, as in cartoons about gas chambers and the like. 

Hi Donna! To answer your question, I don't know.

But about the Pepe meme, I think the blogpost kind of elided over its use. I don't think this was to minimize or justify that usage--I think the writer was essentially assuming that their readers were all fully-versed in why that meme had become so objectionable. So as I read it, the article is saying, "look, here's a meme element with an innocent core that has been co-opted by extremist groups. Now here's another meme element with even worse origins." 

For the record, while I can't stand either set of memes, the OP's numismatic humour was genuinely funny.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I confess that I never heard of Wojak memes.  Pudgy Penguins, yes.  Wojak no. I found the post funny because it was poking fun at the excesses of collectors of modern coins.

Furthermore, I bet no one at work has ever heard of them, either.  I'd be willing to be a lot on that one.  They'd recognize the latest rapper, what happened on Love and Hip Hop, who's going to win the latest sports bet, or something like that.  Wojak, nope.  We're much more concerned about being inconvenienced by the lovely eclipse (the traffic). About 25% of the people whom I spoke to weren't even aware there was to be one, when I was wailing about what a traffic disaster it might be.

With all due respect, I'm more worried about stress at work, a sick parent, and other things going on.  I work in a financial institution.  I'd be much more concerned about the multiple red flags of impending financial collapse, or something really serious like that.  The crummy illustations hardly made me want to start listening to Axis Sally (as a lifelong collector of old-time radio, I know who that was, as well as most of the Allied commentators) and go marching around.

I don't wish to come off as overly snippy, but I'm tired and cranky, coming off of an annoying day.  I just want to illustrate that most people would have absolutely no clue about such memes.

 

[CPK]

3 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I confess that I never heard of Wojak memes.  Pudgy Penguins, yes.  Wojak no. I found the post funny because it was poking fun at the excesses of collectors of modern coins.

Furthermore, I bet no one at work has ever heard of them, either.  I'd be willing to be a lot on that one.  They'd recognize the latest rapper, what happened on Love and Hip Hop, who's going to win the latest sports bet, or something like that.  Wojak, nope.  We're much more concerned about being inconvenienced by the lovely eclipse (the traffic). About 25% of the people whom I spoke to weren't even aware there was to be one, when I was wailing about what a traffic disaster it might be.

With all due respect, I'm more worried about stress at work, a sick parent, and other things going on.  I work in a financial institution.  I'd be much more concerned about the multiple red flags of impending financial collapse, or something really serious like that.  The crummy illustations hardly made me want to start listening to Axis Sally (as a lifelong collector of old-time radio, I know who that was, as well as most of the Allied commentators) and go marching around.

I don't wish to come off as overly snippy, but I'm tired and cranky, coming off of an annoying day.  I just want to illustrate that most people would have absolutely no clue about such memes.

 

I also didn't know anything about the meme's origin, nor do I care. The OP's meme is hilarious and most of us are content to laugh about it and move on. I find it puzzling why some should feel the need to stop, dissect and analyze in order to come up with reasons we should find it objectionable.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

6 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I find it odd that the blog post fails to mention that the primary use of Pepe the Frog has been in Jew-bashing, as in cartoons about gas chambers and the like. 

That isn’t the case. More like, the most popular internet meme around for decades and likely shared many billions of times will inevitably and unfortunately be used by fringe groups to propagate nefarious ideas 

[Kali]

8 hours ago, NathanB said:

The particular characters in this meme (and in many others) always strike me as somehow related to white supremacy.  Does anyone know anything about their origin?  I love memes, but I will never bite if I see these characters.

Boy, post something to put a smile on peoples faces, and it turns into a race thing....I thought people left cointalk to move away from such topics and issues and talk about coins, history and collecting in general?

Memes are no different than cartoons, movies, talk shows, music, and so on.  It's just a modern form of entertainment and of course it can be used for unlikeable views, same with podcasts, twitter and so on.

[John Conduitt]

17 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

That isn’t the case. More like, the most popular internet meme around for decades and likely shared many billions of times will inevitably and unfortunately be used by fringe groups to propagate nefarious ideas 

Yes according to Wikipedia, Matt Furie (the creator) stated that he would continue to "enforce his copyrights aggressively to make sure nobody else is profiting off associating Pepe the Frog with hateful imagery." The Anti-Defamation League, an American organization opposed to antisemitism (who initially listed Pepe as a hate symbol) partnered with Furie to launch the #SavePepe campaign.

If everyone stops using such characters whenever fringe groups try to appropriate them, they become symbols of those groups. There's the same problem with national flags, which are (unlike the frog) naturally based in jingoism. In the UK, if you stick your national flag on a pole in your garden you will look like a Nazi.

[Ursus]

8 hours ago, NathanB said:

The particular characters in this meme (and in many others) always strike me as somehow related to white supremacy. 

I strongly doubt that the OP intended to express support for white supremacists. 

While it’s often apt to address general issues of representation in internet culture, it’s important to note that right-winged political fringe groups have a habit of trying to coopt even the most innocent cultural phenomena. (Pepe the Frog and the OK-sign are good examples.) They do so in order to piggy-back on iconic imagery and reach people that would otherwise not pay attention to the crap they are spreading. 

Personally, I’d rather not let them do so, and I thus believe that it’s a bad idea to withdraw from using popular images because online nazis di so, too. That includes the meme characters used by OP.

[NathanB]

Just to clarify, I agree that innocent things can be co-opted by extremist groups, as is the case with Pepe the frog.

However, in the case of the Wojak memes, the opposite has occurred. These memes got their start in the alt-right, but are now widely used by people who do not know their origins.

When I first saw the "Chad" character many months ago, I could see its origin very clearly just in its basic design, and that is what motivated me to bother to research these memes, which I later learned were called Wojak memes.

Edited April 4 by NathanB

[NathanB]

50 minutes ago, Kali said:

Boy, post something to put a smile on peoples faces, and it turns into a race thing....I thought people left cointalk to move away from such topics and issues and talk about coins, history and collecting in general?

Memes are no different than cartoons, movies, talk shows, music, and so on.  It's just a modern form of entertainment and of course it can be used for unlikeable views, same with podcasts, twitter and so on.

Hey, Kali, you did indeed post some terrific humour, and I do not believe for one minute that you had any nefarious motives in doing so. So to see my comments must have been a very unpleasant shock. 

Unfortunately, in a world of countless memes, I do think it's important for people to know the origins of this particular set of characters.

So although I think it's important that people understand the origins of the Wojak memes, I do feel bad for raining on your parade, as it were. Your numismatic humour was both very creative and truly hilarious. Also, I do enjoy all your contributions on this forum.

[Hrefn]

“Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”  

                                                              Attributed to Sigmund Freud, (and if he didn’t say it, he should have.)  

[Heliodromus]

9 hours ago, NathanB said:

The particular characters in this meme (and in many others) always strike me as somehow related to white supremacy.  Does anyone know anything about their origin?  I love memes, but I will never bite if I see these characters.

I've never seen them used like that. When used together these characters are normally used to represent opposing points of view, as done by OP. Depending on context the bearded guy represents the rational / successful (also chad, alpha-male) POV, and the "wojak" his emotional counterpart.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/yes-chad

 

[Heliodromus]

9 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Why is it called "Wojak"?

I find it odd that the blog post fails to mention that the primary use of Pepe the Frog has been in Jew-bashing

wojak is the name of the guy (some internet poster) who originally came up with this character.

Pepe originated (or at least was popularized - not sure) on the 4chan website (a cesspool of anything-goes subculture), where despite the locale he was just used as a harmless sad character, often accompanying ironic "greentext" humor. He then went mainstream, but apparently has more recently been adopted by the alt-right including Trump.

[JAZ Numismatics]

It's interesting to note that many ancient coins are basically memes. One definition of a meme is "an amusing or interesting item or genre of items that is spread widely throughout society." In our case it happens by social media, in the ancient world by coins. Look at all the propaganda on Roman Republic denarii for example. It seems that most coin memes (and maybe modern memes as well?) have to do with the victory of one group of people or ideas over another. It's the eternal struggle of all creation.

[Heliodromus]

The word "meme" originated as a riff on "gene", basically a memory/mind gene - an idea that is culturally transmitted and thrives or fails based on it's ability to capture peoples imagination (i.e. the world in which it exists), similar to the way genes are propagated and tested by the evolutionary environment in which they exist.

Not to get too philosophical, but people like things that are familiar, and society is built on shared experience and beliefs, which seems to be why repeated genres of jokes exist, such as knock-knock jokes ,or "a man walked into a bar", etc. I think memes are enjoyed for similar reasons - a familiar and shared type of humor that are instantly recognizable and infinitely adaptable. They also help communicate, since you already understand the type of humor/POV being expressed as soon as you see the meme!

Edited April 4 by Heliodromus

[-monolith-]

My modern-vs-ancient collection, can you tell the difference? Which one looks like more fun?

 

 

VS

 

[MrMonkeySwag96]

On 4/3/2024 at 9:54 AM, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

I this think this is definitely true, for better and for worse. Ancient coin collecting is far more difficult than any modern series and requires a significant investment of time and money to even learn about, let alone collect. Unlike moderns, most if not all ancient coin areas require numerous tomes alongside a hefty stack of articles, most difficult or near impossible to obtain. Modern collectors get a $10 book printed each year that tells them exactly what a coin is worth.
 

Ancient collectors often encounter published coins and need to put their knowledge to the test. They have to distinguish between styles and dies. The modern collector (for the vast majority of series), neither will ever encounter an unpublished coin nor need to determine the artistic quality of a die. Anyone can collect funko pops or modern coins from a price book. 

 

That does lead to ancient collectors to look down upon people who buy cook island mint garbage, bullion commemoratives minted in the millions, or disney gold coins. However, I think it’s also important to understand that ancient and modern coin collectors are in the hobby for different reasons.  Modern collectors generally shouldn’t equate ancients with their hobby, and thats often where snobbery can come in. Is it kind? No. Is it correct? In my opinion, yes.
 

I won’t voice that opinion to a modern collector unless asked to, and even then I would respectfully. Even if ancient coins are a more serious endeavor, we can be polite about it

(and I do know some modern collectors who are as academic as ancient collectors)

It’s funny that collectors of vintage US coins look down on collectors of “Cook Islands garbage” as those coins are too modern. 

According to US numismatists, any coin dated after 1933 is modern. Pre-1933 coins are considered “classical.”

I’d bet a US coin collector would feel salty if you tell them their 1812 Capped Bust half dollar is technically a modern coin. All US coins, even the earliest colonial coinage fall within the modern era. They’re all minted after the Ancient and Medieval periods. 

[MrMonkeySwag96]

What you see right here is the most expensive coin in my entire collection. According to PCGS CoinFacts, the 1878 is the most common of the $3 gold coins. Despite being a “common date” my 1878 $3 gold coin is easily worth more than several of my ancient coins combined. Just shows you how expensive it is to collect even relatively common US coins (granted $3 coins are a scarce type in general). While rare US coins sell for thousands or millions of dollars at auction, you also see rare Roman Provincial coins hammer for under $150. 

[Roman Collector]

4 hours ago, MrMonkeySwag96 said:

What you see right here is the most expensive coin in my entire collection. According to PCGS CoinFacts, the 1878 is the most common of the $3 gold coins. Despite being a “common date” my 1878 $3 gold coin is easily worth more than several of my ancient coins combined. Just shows you how expensive it is to collect even relatively common US coins (granted $3 coins are a scarce type in general). While rare US coins sell for thousands or millions of dollars at auction, you also see rare Roman Provincial coins hammer for under $150. 

Even some Roman Imperial coins. I have several coins that are rarer than a 1913 Liberty head V nickel -- and I'm not talking flyspeck die-varieties, either -- obtained for less than $150. As @dougsmit likes to say, "there is nothing as common as a rare ancient coin." 

[-monolith-]

3 hours ago, Roman Collector said:

Even some Roman Imperial coins. I have several coins that are rarer than a 1913 Liberty head V nickel -- and I'm not talking flyspeck die-varieties, either -- obtained for less than $150. As @dougsmit likes to say, "there is nothing as common as a rare ancient coin." 

I must agree. I smirk when a modern collector walks into my friends coin shop, with their chest proudly protruding forward, pulling out their "old" coins to sell and then telling him "these are very limited production, only 110,592 minted and only 85 in this condition, and the coin is over 110 years old....". While my friend appraises the coins, I quietly open my ancient coin binder and the customer asks "what are those". I reply "ancient coins, approximately 1800-2500 years old, with only 10 or less known specimens, all in museums except for the one in my private collection". The customers jaw drops as his shoulders slump forward and a large grin forms on my friends face. 

 

 

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

Oh, hey, I made this meme 🙂