Bye, Bye Women of Rome

[lrbguy]

Around the turn of the millenium I began acquiring coins, mainly denarii, for the Roman empresses along with those of the associated Emperors.  Before long that led to doing a more detailed study of the imperial silver for the Women of Rome, from the first through the third centuries.  There were quite a few times when more coins featuring women were sought out than for the men.  However, I must admit that since Covid came along, I have not been attending to coins the way I had been.   In January 2024 I started looking into letting some go, and by the end of April my wife and I had prepared an inventory of everything we could live without.  As a team we decided to part with a little more than 600 coins (mostly denarii and antoniniani), 440 of which feature Women of Rome.  Once everything was inventoried and mounted in flips arranged as pages in binders.  We reduced the load to two binders, his and hers: two inches for the guys and four inches for the gals.  Where to consign them?   We zeroed on two potential vendors, and planned to meet with them at a show in early May.  

!!What an eye opener THAT has been!!

During the month of April both vendors were briefed about the potential consignment and shown pics of some of the coins (pics which appeared in a thread here at Nvmis Forvms:
https://www.numisforums.com/topic/4390-roman-coins-in-reverse-a-chronological-gallery/  for the first 29 pages of the thread.)

I did not start with the most impressive coins for Vendor A, but with those at the tail of the run.  Not surprisingly, from a value standpoint, they were not impressed, since the antoniniani are mostly common.  The lament was that there were few that could stand alone as a lot given the house lotting minimums. The trouble is, when I sent pics of the big sister denarii, the lament continued.  Had I queered their perception of the material by starting at the low end?  I was beginning to think that I had.

With Vendor B I flashed some pics of the midrange material.  They wanted to see more, and seemed intrigued at the focus on women, but said little about what I had showed.  They went into the final week before the show with only a cursory glance.  So by the time the show came around I had little confidence that anything would be picked up.

Looking versus Seeing

At the show Vendor A was the first to see ALL the material at their booth  They were quick to observe in the men's volume that there were some nice pieces, but also a heavy load of material that could only be lotted in groups.  They lamented that such material would cost them more than average to try to sell.  As for the coins of the women, we were told that ALL of that material would be costly for them to try to sell.  Such coins were a niche market, we were told, and would be hard to move.  As such they could not be sure that we would see our costs return to us, especially after the house percentage was deducted.  Although they had told us beforehand that up to 50% of the expected value could be advanced, on inspection they admitted they could not do that, nor could they think of anyone in their position that could.   The tone and content of their response is exactly what I anticipated given their previous comments online.  The Women of Rome material did not impress them in the least.

Vendor B had a booth with a company rep looking for consignments, but was not offering material to sell.  Prior to the show we had arranged to meet with him in his hotel room. We left the show and accompanied him to a more private space.  We showed him the two binders of silver, and he asked for the smaller binder first. No surprise there, we thought.  He paged through the binder noting various and sundry, pausing from time to time with a lens to take a close look.  But in short order he was ready to move to the big binder for the Women of Rome grouping. For that I anticipated pretty much the same treatment as before, but that is not what happened.  Slowly, page by page he looked at nearly every coin with his lens, pausing to pull out more than a few from their flips for a close direct look.  It became obvious that he was savoring the opportunity to see such a workup. At the end of his preliminary inspection he announced that his company would be happy to take on the consignment, and were prepared to offer us a 50% advance on the consignment if we desired it. Did we have anything else?

At that we produced another suitcase that held an accumulation of a little more than 300 Roman Provincial bronze coins mainly in the range AE24-30. Again with the lens and the close looks.  And again with the determination to add that to the consignment. 

Denouement

As we discussed his motivation to take on the consignment, it became clear to me that his company was seeing something in the marketplace the other company did not.  How might one account for the difference?  From what I can glean from viewing company publications Vendor B has women in the administration of the business, but Vendor A not so much.  Increasingly, women are becoming a force in the marketplace for ancients, and their interests are gradually emerging as parallel but distinct from those of men. For the past 25 or so years I have participated in three coin lists, and a couple of newsgroups before that, and have found in the two most recent lists that women who enter this hobby know more than a little about what they are doing.  They are comparatively few, perhaps, but they are a vanguard.  It is not hard to imagine that in the collecting of ancients a new day lies ahead.  My experience with this consignment has led to the realization that some will perceive it and some will not.  And in that I suspect that some may thrive, and some may not.

If it is not forbidden, I will let you know when these coins are offered in the marketplace.

[PS: My collecting of ancient coins does not end here.  I will return to what brought me to ancients in the first place: Late Roman Bronze (lrbguy).  First Tetrarchy and later. 

 

 

Edited May 27 by lrbguy
typos

[expat]

Good luck for the future sale.

[John Conduitt]

Maybe they thought the women would be cheaper coins, but I don't know why. There are a fair few women whose coins are somewhat low in value but that is the same for the men. My Sabina was more expensive than all 4 of my Hadrians, almost put together. Otacilia Severa was more expensive than all 3 of my Philip I and IIs put together. Mariniana cost me more than all my Valerian and Gallienus coins put together (9 coins), and even more than Aemilian. Helena and Fausta can be very low cost but not from the London mint, where they are way more expensive than almost all of the men. It's hard to find a woman who doesn't cost more than the corresponding man. Even on this forum, there seem to be more people collecting specific empresses (Faustina...) than specific emperors.

They might be a bit wary of selling a collection with a specific focus, since there won't be huge numbers of collectors collecting empresses. But I think that is a false assumption - not everyone who buys empresses is specifically collecting empresses, and there is a wider appeal.

Good luck with the sale!

Edited May 27 by John Conduitt

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I've been collecting for 30 years, and it wasn't until about the past 5 years that I began to collect the Caesars in earnest and only about the last two when I would buy the empresses.  Not counting bulk bags, I have maybe 8 coins of the women of Rome. Two were very early additions; Didia Clara and Mariniana.  I think Salonina leads the count with two or three.

I never really got into them because of opportunity cost, and the men would have fancier busts; the martial poses and that sort of thing.

It also didn't help that post-Salonina to the tetrarchy, the portrayal of women wasn't very artful. 

Per female deities of Rome, that's different.  I probably have a fair number of those gracing the obverses from the republican period.

 

 

Edited May 27 by Nerosmyfavorite68

[DonnaML]

1 hour ago, lrbguy said:

How might one account for the difference?  From what I can glean from viewing company publications Vendor B has women in the administration of the business, but Vendor A not so much.  Increasingly, women are becoming a force in the marketplace for ancients, and their interests are gradually emerging as parallel but distinct from those of men. For the past 25 or so years I have participated in three coin lists, and a couple of newsgroups before that, and have found in the two most recent lists that women who enter this hobby know more than a little about what they are doing.  They are comparatively few, perhaps, but they are a vanguard.  It is not hard to imagine that in the collecting of ancients a new day lies ahead.  My experience with this consignment has led to the realization that some will perceive it and some will not.  And in that I suspect that some may thrive, and some may not.

 

The best of luck to you. Hooray for Vendor B, and a pox on the short-sighted Vendor A.  I may be the only woman who posts here regularly at the moment (which doesn't bother me, and which I rarely even think about, because my posts are treated with the same respect and consideration as anyone else's).* But I know for a fact that there are others -- such as @airhead1983 (Erin) -- who are here reading and reacting to posts all the time, and plenty more out there who aren't members and/or don't post anymore, who know way more about ancient coins than I do. Including professional numismatists and academics. (Consider the large percentage of women among younger scholars who publish books about ancient numismatics, and articles in academic journals.)

Not only that, one doesn't have to be a woman to go out of one's way to collect coins of Roman Empresses and other royal women. There are several members here who do so, including more than one who knows far more about their hairstyles than I ever could!

*The only problem I've ever had with that, unless it was a factor for the couple of people at Coin Talk who always went out of their way to be nasty to me (I suspect that my geographic location, religion/ethnicity, and occasionally-expressed opposition to certain political views had more to do with it!) was in the Facebook ancient coin group, where one member, who I doubt is any older than I am, persisted in condescendingly addressing me as "sweetie" in responding to my disagreement with his views on a numismatic issue. Even after I asked him not to call me that. So I blocked that guy and reported him, and have had no problems since then.

Edited May 27 by DonnaML

[NathanB]

Interesting read. I've had similar experiences with dealers when I've sold coins and even books. I think some dealers get tired with age. Others, despite their age, stay young and alert.

Just as a general rule of thumb: always show a potential buyer who is a dealer more valuable stuff first. 

On another note, and this is from my very limited view, I get the impression that empress coins are actually very sought after.

[CPK]

Best of luck with the sale @lrbguy.

[rasiel]

I don't have any meaningful to add to this discussion except to say that in most cases coins of empresses are more expensive than those of their husbands (sometimes dramatically so). The simple reason is rarity, as the emperor's output was typically considerably larger.

Rasiel

[mcwyler]

I think this thread needs more illustration. Here are some I haven't shown before. Faustina 2, Julia Domna, Plautilla, Herennia Etruscilla, Salonina, Severina, Helena, Theodora and Aelia Flaccilla.

Looking at these pictures I am reminded that I really need to improve my photography skills. Or get some in the first place. These are all Sellers' photos and as you can see vary quite a bit in quality.

Edited May 28 by mcwyler
Add comment

[Julius Germanicus]

A couple of weeks ago I sold a bunch of nice roman bronze coins at the local flea market (always makes for interesting conversations).

The young couple who bought the last one left "needed" it just because the pretty woman´s name by coincidence happened to also be Antonia!

Maybe I got another lady interested in ancient coins this way 😀

Edited May 30 by Julius Germanicus

[Steppenfool]

Best of luck in your sale! Looking through your posts, I'd certainly be interested in some the pieces if you wouldn't mind revealing which auction house you consigned your collection to? Some of my empresses:

[lrbguy]

Latest update on all this:

Vendor B is Leu Numismatik, and they will be offering most of the consigned material in an electronic sale (Web Auction 30)  to be held in July (13-15).  I am told that the actual lots will be online soon for those wishing to see what's up.  Apparently they will be promoting this portion of the sale as a Women of Rome specialty.  Not sure just what that will look like.

Anyway, those of you who have followed some of these posts over the last year will recognize some old friends and acquaintances.

 

[Ten-Speed]

 

I am awaiting my first Leu catalog and hope to see your coins there.

Edited June 17 by Ten-Speed

[lrbguy]

On 6/17/2024 at 11:42 AM, Ten-Speed said:

 

I am awaiting my first Leu catalog and hope to see your coins there.

It's an electronic sale.  Online catalog only.  Watch their site for it.

Edited June 19 by lrbguy
incomplete info

[Ten-Speed]

Thank you for bringing this up....

Edited June 19 by Ten-Speed

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

Very interesting experience. Vendor B being perhaps the "It" vendor right now I am delighted to hear of the outcome. 

As far as for me, I have quite a few of the Imperial women in both silver and bronze. Rather than just an emperor I collect personages of Imperial Rome, which of course includes women and children. My favorite perhaps being a simple Salonina of Alexandria, with a common eagle reverse.  The portrait is well done for the time and quite sympathetic, the detail of the hairstyle, even with some wear, is nice and the coin has a pleasing thick brown patina. 

[Finn235]

Good luck with the sale! Leu does seem to have the strongest bidding action lately, so hopefully it will be a net positive for you!

[lrbguy]

16 minutes ago, Finn235 said:

Good luck with the sale! Leu does seem to have the strongest bidding action lately, so hopefully it will be a net positive for you!

Heads up for you:  they have that Cornelia Supera you admired several years ago on another list.  You might see it in this sale with a "for sale" sign.

I had also consigned about 300 Roman Provincials.  Many/Most could be going in group lots.

[Roman Collector]

The auction is up at Leu! I think they did a great job with @lrbguy's coins. The photos are flattering and the descriptions are accurate. The higher grade coins are listed separately and there's a very nice selection of provincial bronzes from Moesia Inferior. The starting bids are low, but I know Leu and I'm sure the coins will bring several multiples of the starting bids. There are group lots of lower grade imperial and provincial issues (these are NOT JUNK) that would make great stock for the dealers on this forum. I'm looking at you, @JAZ Numismatics, @Victor Clark, @Prieure de Sion, and @KenDorney. 

[SimonW]

On 6/17/2024 at 6:32 PM, lrbguy said:

Latest update on all this:

Vendor B is Leu Numismatik, and they will be offering most of the consigned material in an electronic sale (Web Auction 30)  to be held in July (13-15).  I am told that the actual lots will be online soon for those wishing to see what's up.  Apparently they will be promoting this portion of the sale as a Women of Rome specialty.  Not sure just what that will look like.

Anyway, those of you who have followed some of these posts over the last year will recognize some old friends and acquaintances.

 

It would also be interesting to know who Vendor A was.

[Qcumbor]

I just browsed the Leu 30 e-auction catalog with the coins you consigned @lrbguy and Wow ! , there are some trully beautiful ones. Tough choice !
I will be visiting Leu offices a few days prior to the auction. Hopefully I can have the opportunity of holding some in hand and admire them

Best of luck !

Q

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

6 hours ago, SimonW said:

It would also be interesting to know who Vendor A was.

We can guess........

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

I will certainly check out the Leu site @lrbguy

Sounds like they have done an excellent job presenting the material.

 

Edit: I did check out the auction site and found an incredible collection of Imperial women. I don't know how you put together such a large grouping of even extremely rare and desirable types like Orbiana in both silver and bronze.

Edited June 23 by Ancient Coin Hunter