Julius Caesar. Authentic?

[ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ]

18 mm 3.8 g

[Romismatist]

Fake, although they did put some effort into imitating a moneyer's mark on the obverse. The lack of detail on the hair gives it away, and the style is pretty off.

[ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ]

It is hard to see on these pictures but has significant wear on Caesar's  face and hair.

[CPK]

The style is a little odd. However, I would not consider myself qualified to give a definite judgement.

[traveler]

It is a cast of a fake coin.

The style is obviously wrong, so it must be a product of modern dies. Then this coin was cast from a product of these modern dies. 

Not intended to deceive collectors I feel, more like a tourist fake. Really doesn't get much more obvious than this, sorry.

 

Edited May 29 by traveler
Spacing

[Romismatist]

2 hours ago, ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ said:

It is hard to see on these pictures but has significant wear on Caesar's  face and hair.

Wear on a coin by itself doesn't guarantee authenticity. Forgers know this and will go to great lengths to distress and patinate a coin to make it appear genuine. You can imitate wear by throwing coins into a tumbler, for example.

It would also be interesting to see the edge of the coin to see if there is a casting seam. I would agree that the coin looks cast and not struck, which would account for the mushiness of the design.

Note that if this coin were real it would go for several thousand dollars. If the price is too good to be true, it usually is.

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

Petar Petrov 8.A _Catalogue_Roman_Denarius number 203 b

 

 

[ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ]

Thanks everyone for the comments, especially those who mentioned specific issues with this coin.

I would like to ask that you please elaborate on your comments. Just saying "obvious", "fake"  or "wrong style" may mean something to experts but it's not helpful to less knowledgeable collectors like me. Danke 😁

[Romismatist]

18 hours ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

Petar Petrov 8.A _Catalogue_Roman_Denarius number 203 b

 

 

There you go... it's a Petar Petrov copy of a Julius Caesar denarius

[ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ]

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2336353&AucID=5716&Lot=23073&Val=9926b182047789171b5fb3cf949b95e7

 

[Dafydd]

In my humble opinion @BA ? The bankers mark is very sharp and whilst it may have been added many years after the coin was minted it looks too good to be true, the general consensus of soft lettering also indicates casting. I have posted a number of fakes and fortunately the advice of forum members saved me a lot of expense and heartache. 

One thing I have learnt is buy a microscope such as this one at under $20  see https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jiusion-Magnification-Endoscope-Microscope-Compatible/dp/B06WD843ZM/ref=sr_1_7?crid=27JLLTOBXRN90&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.m9aHWJtjYZKYrPMZBl_gC-EnbGQ_10tWBOZkCgLmyzoxmWcrzPZoXlD1XdE8IxA0E0rv2d_5LDMkb6RXoSUAkHLKIfB_UuJq4D8i6Q6phldRF8q-FD0k8Wcf-kMLa4taLQuCFIDWEsuX9oRJUZRE9C5a_YLTZGpsYVJw1FH0SBeX8-pCLPN5yY5Xwi7Gz4ej7SF3IBgkDLjmhNeBOc0WKXa1B3OOvm1Zh0oEdV65B42gDhx1QBijqAOkb2IgtEM06M1gmk5XmWYm9eEGstM8tboFPw4JxebTNfzV-RA31JA.vsdOVGMDvYgK0ZFAzeAhUWJOzcfVFw63QEZv_z_8u2Q&dib_tag=se&keywords=laptop+microscope&qid=1717017545&sprefix=laptop+microscope%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-7

With this you will be able to see flow lines to determine if the coin was struck not cast although it may still be a fake if struck.

[traveler]

Hi,

Please see this example below which I attached (not my coin). It should be clear that the style is different. The engraving quality is simply more elegant and lifelike. I don't know how to better describe it.

Roman coins tend to have a distinct style and engraving quality which collectors can easily recognise and come to expect. There are exceptions, for example if the coin is part of an irregular or emergency issue. Or if the coin was struck in a provincial mint. But these are uncommon.

This denarius which you are asking about was issued during the imperatorial period, a time of civil war. However it was struck by the official moneyers in Rome (and not from a military mint in the field). You would expect the same level of fine artistry and engraving delicacy which the Roman denarius was known for.

Besides the style, it is obvious from a glance from the fields/surfaces are very unlike what you would expect from a struck coin. Any struck coin. That doesn't mean that it's definitely a cast, but it's something which should be seriously considered. 

With respect, you have been asking about quite a few dubious coins on the other coin forum as well. I'm not sure where these coins are being offered from, but until you gain a little bit more expertise, you might want to consider buying from more reputable sources.

[ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ]

I get what you're saying, it makes sense.  However, the lettering on this coin that you posted is not exactly perfect artistry. The lettering in VOCONIVS is not evenly spaced, especially between the first O and the C, then between the second O and the N. On VITVLVS the middle V and the S are hanging noticeable  lower.

The coin shows little wear so Caesar and the calf look extra fine.

Sorry to bother you guys, I see how it is. This exclusive club board is so busy, like Cointalk, that people can't give constructive feedback without a put down. Thanks 

Edited May 30 by ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ

[traveler]

3 hours ago, traveler said:

Hi,

Please see this example below which I attached (not my coin). It should be clear that the style is different. The engraving quality is simply more elegant and lifelike. I don't know how to better describe it.

Roman coins tend to have a distinct style and engraving quality which collectors can easily recognise and come to expect. There are exceptions, for example if the coin is part of an irregular or emergency issue. Or if the coin was struck in a provincial mint. But these are uncommon.

This denarius which you are asking about was issued during the imperatorial period, a time of civil war. However it was struck by the official moneyers in Rome (and not from a military mint in the field). You would expect the same level of fine artistry and engraving delicacy which the Roman denarius was known for.

Besides the style, it is obvious from a glance from the fields/surfaces are very unlike what you would expect from a struck coin. Any struck coin. That doesn't mean that it's definitely a cast, but it's something which should be seriously considered. 

With respect, you have been asking about quite a few dubious coins on the other coin forum as well. I'm not sure where these coins are being offered from, but until you gain a little bit more expertise, you might want to consider buying from more reputable sources.

It took more than half an hour to type my reply above. Thought, effort, and some amount of reference checking went into it.

Respectfully, I did not spend that time and effort to put you down. If you think there is a secret or shortcut which will allow you to definitively condemn a coin (and which people don't want to share), I fear you will be disappointed. 

[idesofmarch01]

15 hours ago, ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ said:

Sorry to bother you guys, I see how it is. This exclusive club board is so busy, like Cointalk, that people can't give constructive feedback without a put down. Thanks 

I would encourage you to differentiate between the difficulty of articulating terms like "style" and "engraving delicacy" vs. (perceived) lack of helpfulness and sincerity.  It's my observation that the replies you received are indeed sincerely trying to be helpful, but I agree that for a beginner, they're not going to be perceived as very clear or useful.

My own experience in collecting ancient coins for the relatively short period of 17 years is that it's almost impossible to adequately describe differences in "style" (and other terms that arise) when discussing forgeries even after you've viewed literally thousands of pictures of genuine ancient coins, and hundreds of pictures of known forgeries.  Thus it's not a surprise that you find the posts here less-than-explanatory even though the posters are sincerely trying to be helpful.  

Plus, as many of these posts state, poor style and soapy-looking fields (the flat surfaces on a coin) are rarely dispositive in determining whether a coin is a forgery.  You need additional measurements, viewing the coin in hand, and in many cases the opinion of a known expert who can examine the coin closely.

The most constructive suggestion I can offer is to go to ACSEARCH.INFO and type in the search string "julius caesar denarius voconius" and look at ALL the 200+ results.  Examine them to see if you find any coins that look very, very similar to the coin that you posted above.  In addition, enlarge the pictures and examine the surfaces, and look especially closely at Caesar's portrait and neck for similarities.  You'll see most of the surfaces look different -- less "soapy" -- and the narrowing of Caesar's neck is unusual in his portraits.  While this is not proof that your coin is a fake, it will help you understand why others here are uncomfortable with it.

Finally, if you want an interesting saga about how difficult it can be to ultimately determine a good forgery, try this old link:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/hadrian-aureus-a-tale-of-subtle-differences.283959/

Edited May 30 by idesofmarch01

[ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ]

5 hours ago, idesofmarch01 said:

I would encourage you to differentiate between the difficulty of articulating terms like "style" and "engraving delicacy" vs. (perceived) lack of helpfulness and sincerity.  It's my observation that the replies you received are indeed sincerely trying to be helpful, but I agree that for a beginner, they're not going to be perceived as very clear or useful.

My own experience in collecting ancient coins for the relatively short period of 17 years is that it's almost impossible to adequately describe differences in "style" (and other terms that arise) when discussing forgeries even after you've viewed literally thousands of pictures of genuine ancient coins, and hundreds of pictures of known forgeries.  Thus it's not a surprise that you find the posts here less-than-explanatory even though the posters are sincerely trying to be helpful.  

Plus, as many of these posts state, poor style and soapy-looking fields (the flat surfaces on a coin) are rarely dispositive in determining whether a coin is a forgery.  You need additional measurements, viewing the coin in hand, and in many cases the opinion of a known expert who can examine the coin closely.

The most constructive suggestion I can offer is to go to ACSEARCH.INFO and type in the search string "julius caesar denarius voconius" and look at ALL the 200+ results.  Examine them to see if you find any coins that look very, very similar to the coin that you posted above.  In addition, enlarge the pictures and examine the surfaces, and look especially closely at Caesar's portrait and neck for similarities.  You'll see most of the surfaces look different -- less "soapy" -- and the narrowing of Caesar's neck is unusual in his portraits.  While this is not proof that your coin is a fake, it will help you understand why others here are uncomfortable with it.

Finally, if you want an interesting saga about how difficult it can be to ultimately determine a good forgery, try this old link:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/hadrian-aureus-a-tale-of-subtle-differences.283959/

I appreciate your thoughtful and informative  comments, as well as Traveler's. What annoyed me was his comment about my other "dubious coins" which I felt were gratuitous and offensive.

I usually lookup my coins on coinarchives, wildwinds, CNG and acsearch although this latter shows limited info (I don't have a subscription)

I have read articles and watched some videos (CNG) on how to spot fakes.

I got this coin a few years back from a local American silver coins collector/dealer that was not interested in ancients.

As you suggested, I went back to acsearch and I see various versions of my coin that are very similar. 

Ultimately, I will send it off to Sears for authentication.

Thank you!

[Postvmvs]

As @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix already posted, this a replica struck by Petar Petrov, or possibly a cast copy of one. You can buy them on Etsy:

https://www.etsy.com/de-en/listing/1434015056/silver-roman-denarius-of-caivs-divus?click_key=2927da57412088f9d8676d2e6d4fc22eb28ea615%3A1434015056&click_sum=3b8267e6&external=1&rec_type=ss&ref=landingpage_similar_listing_top-2&pro=1&frs=1&sts=1

 

[Romismatist]

$30 for a replica JC denarius, not bad!

Seriously though, anyone's chances of acquiring rare, expensive and desirable coins like these for less than thousands of dollars are pretty much zero. It's not something that anyone collecting ancients would overlook, or even a dealer focusing on modern coins. The other point is that these fantastically rare coins are also the ones that are most imitated, so buying these types of coins through reputable, knowledgeable ancients dealers or auctions is always recommended, even though you won't like the prices.

I will echo the comments of @traveler and @idesofmarch01 that in my view, everyone on this thread is making a sincere effort to be helpful. Like @traveler, I have also read your past threads and have noticed the other coins you've asked about. The replies have often been similar to those posted here. I don't think that these responses or the previous ones are disrespectful; like you indicate yourself, we're calling it the way we see it. I have come to tremendously respect, admire and appreciate the cumulative centuries of collector experience in this forum, and I'm hoping that you will eventually see the same value that I see in this network as well.

[ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΛΦΩΝΣΟΥ]

2 hours ago, Romismatist said:

$30 for a replica JC denarius, not bad!

Seriously though, anyone's chances of acquiring rare, expensive and desirable coins like these for less than thousands of dollars are pretty much zero. It's not something that anyone collecting ancients would overlook, or even a dealer focusing on modern coins. The other point is that these fantastically rare coins are also the ones that are most imitated, so buying these types of coins through reputable, knowledgeable ancients dealers or auctions is always recommended, even though you won't like the prices.

I will echo the comments of @traveler and @idesofmarch01 that in my view, everyone on this thread is making a sincere effort to be helpful. Like @traveler, I have also read your past threads and have noticed the other coins you've asked about. The replies have often been similar to those posted here. I don't think that these responses or the previous ones are disrespectful; like you indicate yourself, we're calling it the way we see it. I have come to tremendously respect, admire and appreciate the cumulative centuries of collector experience in this forum, and I'm hoping that you will eventually see the same value that I see in this network as well.

Well,we've beaten the horse to death. Thanks everyone. The irony is that the reason I posted the coin in the first place is that I had doubts myself. Likewise with the other coins I posted. If they were slabbed or I had been 100% sure I might not have posted them.

Thanks again.