Qcumbor Posted June 7 · Supporter Share Posted June 7 (edited) Hi coin friends In our perpetual quest for new coins to add to our collections, we are often prone to complain about bad behavior of coin dealers, about our frustration at auction, and so on. You know what I mean, and we actually have numerous threads about that. Let me tell you a different story this time Putting together the 22 different types constituing the Divi series of antoniniani minted under Trajan Decius took me about 17 years. It's been a long and patient journey. I lenghtly explained it in a thread at the other place : https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-trajan-decius-the-divi-series.296342/ Some of them are easy finds, some are quite difficult to put your hand on. Among them are the two types celebrating Hadrian. They're not the rarest but have such a reputation, hence they demand a premium. Back in 2008, I was lucky to score the following from the Vcoin dealer Pars Coins. By this time it was by far the most expensive I acquired and still remains at the second place in this regard : Hadrianus, Antoninianus - Rome mint AD 250/251 DIVO HADRIANO Radiate head right CONSECRATIO Eagle facing 4.02 gr, 20 mm Ref : RIC IV # 87, Cohen # 1508, RCV # 9472 I have since posted it numerous times and nothing ever seemed wrong to anyone. Until now !! Fast forward to last february There's a website run by Joaquim Blay dedicated to the Divi Series. On the occasion of an upgrade he posted at Forvm Ancient Coins to advertise the novelty. 24 hours later a member wrote that they had spotted some transfer die fakes, with convincing enough explanations that no doubt remained, and guess what, my coin was one of them ! https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=133307.msg793777 At first I was quite shocked, first for having not spotted the coin as being fake 🤔, then for having my series incomplete again 😁 and finally for the loss 😞 . I decided to throw an email to Parviz Ahghari with a link to the Forvm discussion. I have to say the man has been great and professional, sticking to the Vcoins code of ethics : He asked me to send the coin back, and immediately after he got it in the mail I received a full refund ! 16 years after I had purchased the coin ! Now, this is what my Divi series looks like ! The good news, is I have now the goal of completing it again Thanks for reading. Please, comment, and/or tell us nice stories you've had with dealers, fakes you have spotted long after purchase, refunds you were able to obtain, or whatever you find relevant (or irrelevant all the same 🙂 ) Q Edited June 8 by Qcumbor 18 5 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expat Posted June 7 · Supporter Share Posted June 7 @Qcumbor glad it worked out for you to return it. As you said the disappointment of having an incomplete series is somewhat offset by your new goal to try and complete it again. I have nothing but good to say about Pars coins. I have successfully won coins at three of his auctions on Vauctions, with the coins being dispatched each time promptly and securely packaged. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted June 7 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 7 Wow! That's a heck of a return policy! My best experience came from Bargain Bin Ancients. I buy from there frequently, and Brian the owner knows I have a thing for "puzzle coins", so one order he just added these posers! I have some ideas, but don't have a 100% attribution for any yet. 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AETHER Posted June 7 · Member Share Posted June 7 Glad u got ur refund. Two things as a collector make me anxious.. 1. Waiting on coin delivery 2. Worrying about fakes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted June 8 · Supporter Share Posted June 8 Good for the dealer. Even though on VCoins, they're all supposed to guarantee authenticity, having a dealer fulfill that guarantee, no questions asked, 16 years after the date of purchase speaks very highly of them. Good behavior ought to be rewarded - I will keep Pars Coins in mind next time I'm planning a purchase. 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romismatist Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 Great experience, @Qcumbor, but I have to say, that fake sure looks legit... shakes me a bit to my core about some of the other coins I've bought over the years :-0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 (edited) That's wonderful that you received such fine service. I have yet to order from Pars, but having such integrity does instill confidence. Yes, I've come across a lot of great dealers on vcoins. I ordered my first U.S. coin from a U.S.-based vcoins dealer; 2 1/2 weeks and waiting. Certified mail is supposed to be slow, but come on. How long should I wait before going to vcoins' management? I at least received something when I ordered from Opisthodomos. Edited June 8 by Nerosmyfavorite68 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth77 Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 9 hours ago, kirispupis said: Wow! That's a heck of a return policy! My best experience came from Bargain Bin Ancients. I buy from there frequently, and Brian the owner knows I have a thing for "puzzle coins", so one order he just added these posers! I have some ideas, but don't have a 100% attribution for any yet. That second coin looks like it has the monster of Loch Ness on the obverse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kowsky Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 14 hours ago, Qcumbor said: Hi coin friends In our perpetual quest for new coins to add to our collections, we are often prone to complain about bad behavior of coin dealers, about our frustration at auction, and so on. You know what I mean, and we actually have numerous threads about that. Let me tell you a different story this time Putting together the 22 different types constituing the Divi series of antoniniani minted under Trajan Decius took me about 17 years. It's been a long and patient journey. I lenghtly explained it in a thread at the other place : https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-trajan-decius-the-divi-series.296342/ Some of them are easy finds, some are quite difficult to put your hand on. Among them are the two types celebrating Hadrian. They're not the rarest but have such a reputation, hence they demand a premium. Back in 2008, I was lucky to score the following from the Vcoin dealer Pars Coins. By this time it was by far the most expensive I acquired and still remains at the second place in this regard : Hadrianus, Antoninianus - Rome mint AD 250/251 DIVO HADRIANO Radiate head right CONSECRATIO Eagle facing 4.02 gr, 20 mm Ref : RIC IV # 87, Cohen # 1508, RCV # 9472 I have since posted it numerous times and nothing ever seemed wrong to anyone. Until now !! Fast forward to last february There's a website run by Joaquim Blay dedicated to the Divi Series. On the occasion of an upgrade he posted at Forvm Ancient Coins to advertise the novelty. 24 hours later a member wrote that they had spotted some transfer die fakes, with convincing enough explanations that no doubt remained, and guess what, my coin was one of them ! https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=133307.msg793777 At first I was quite shocked, first for having not spotted the coin as being fake 🤔, then for having my series incomplete again 😁 and finally for the loss 😞 . I decided to throw an email to Parviz Ahghari with a link to the Forvm discussion. I have to say the man has been great and professional, sticking to the Vcoins code of ethics : He asked me to send the coin back, and immediately after he got it in the mail I received a full refund ! 16 years after I had purchased the coin ! Now, this is what my Divi series looks like ! The good news, is I have now the goal of completing it again Thanks for reading. Please, comment, and/or tell us nice stories you've had with dealers, fakes you have spotted long after purchase, refunds you were able to obtain, or whatever you find relevant (or irrelevant all the same 🙂 ) Q Wow 🤩! Great collection & group display 😃. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 Indeed! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrbguy Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 (edited) Call me a skeptic, but I am not entirely convinced by the image analysis Din X has given. Before I reveal my ignorance, however, I need to ask, how many die types are known for what he calls the "mother" coin (first coin below)? More than one pair? If so, then it's back to the drawing board for me. Here are his notes for comparison: Why are they transfer die fakes? 1. There is a ghost line on the obverse which is 100% representing the flan shape and flan end of the authentic mother 2. The edge cracks on the reverse have been copied, they are an individual characteristic from striking of the mother and should not be found identical on another coin 3. There is an encrustration on the I of DIVI on the mother this encrustration, which is an individual characteristic of the mother from environment and it has been copied 4. These fakes only have details from the original dies which can already be found on the authentic mother! No new details, from the original dies which are missing on the mother. 5. Detail loss and soapyness The coins below appear in 4th and 5th position in his analysis, and though they appear to be obverse and reverse die matches, there are some significant differences between them by virtue of flan characteristics. Eg. ONLY the "mother" coin has a sprue, which is replaced in the second example by a flan crack. Meanwhile, the double crack below the bust on the "mother" coin does not carry over to both sides of the coin in the second example. . Other problems have surfaced, but before I look further I would like to hear about observed die DIFFERENCES in this coin. I will be the first to admit I have a lot to learn about die matching, and there are people here who can lead the way, but for the moment I need to withhold judgement. Edited June 8 by lrbguy typos 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qcumbor Posted June 8 · Supporter Author Share Posted June 8 Interesting thoughts @lrbguy 35 minutes ago, lrbguy said: ....I need to ask, how many die types are known for what he calls the "mother" coin (first coin below)? More than one pair? If so, then it's back to the drawing board for me. If that's the question you ask, Joaquim has recorded 90 different obverse dies for Hadrianus antoniniani of the series Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 (edited) 7 hours ago, lrbguy said: I would like to hear about observed die DIFFERENCES in this coin You can see the edges of the "mother" coin, captured by the transfer die, showing up on the copy (green arrows). You can also see the edge of the sprue copied (red arrow). Various wear/damage aspects of the mother coin have also been copied such as the scratch across the right wing (red arrows). It would be easy to get rid of the die cracks on the transfer die. When initially copied cracks on the coin will transfer as raised areas on the die, which were then filed down to eliminate them. Edited June 8 by Heliodromus 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrbguy Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 43 minutes ago, Qcumbor said: Interesting thoughts @lrbguy If that's the question you ask, Joaquim has recorded 90 different obverse dies for Hadrianus antoniniani of the series Q That's 90 obverse dies for this "commemorative" under Decius? If so, that is impressive then and now (in the observation). But then that means the comparisons for spotting these anomalous commemorative pieces must have been very extensive. That too is impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qcumbor Posted June 8 · Supporter Author Share Posted June 8 (edited) 9 minutes ago, lrbguy said: That's 90 obverse dies for this "commemorative" under Decius? If so, that is impressive then and now (in the observation). But then that means the comparisons for spotting these anomalous commemorative pieces must have been very extensive. That too is impressive. OOPS, sorry, it's 90 coins in the database, from 24 obverse dies. My bad, I've been a bit too quick 😄 Emperor Coins Registered Diferent Dies Known Rate Coins/ Known Dies Number of Original Dies Estimated by Goods' Method Dies Stand.Dev. Singletons %Known Augusto 318 69 4,61 72 2 12 96,2% Vespasiano 316 76 4,16 80 2 15 95,3% Tito 250 50 5,00 51 1 7 97,2% Nervae 135 19 7,11 19 1 3 97,8% Traiano 408 91 4,48 95 2 16 96,1% Hadriano 90 24 3,75 28 2 12 86,7% Antonino 541 94 5,76 96 2 14 97,4% Marco 98 18 5,44 18 1 1 99,0% Commodo 231 47 4,91 49 1 8 96,5% Severo 107 19 5,63 20 1 4 96,3% Alexandro 304 51 5,96 53 1 10 96,7% Total 2798 558 5,01 579 5 102 96,4% Q Edited June 8 by Qcumbor 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrbguy Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 2 minutes ago, Qcumbor said: OOPS, sorry, it's 90 coins in the database, from 24 obverse dies. My bad, I've been a bit too quick 😄 Q Still impressive. Spotting all that! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catadc Posted June 8 · Member Share Posted June 8 Désolé. Hope you'll find an authentic one soon. That's an impressive collection and deserves to be complete. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Theodosius Posted June 11 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 11 I had a similar experience with Pars Coins although it was only a year or two between purchase and it being revealed as a fake. I was surprised to see the coin for sale in a new auction from another company that had nothing to do with pars coins after I returned it. I am sure that pars returned it to whoever sold it to them who in turn sold it on in a new auction. I contacted the auction house who pretty much ignored me and sold the coin anyway. So don't be surprised if you see your coin for sale sometime or many times in the future. eBay is probably the final dumping ground for coins that have been deemed to be fake more than is convenient for regular sales channels. 😊 Another thing to watch out for is the concept of lifetime guarantee. Do you think Roma's going to honor their lifetime guarantee anymore, I doubt it. If you buy things from a single proprietor company who is much older than you, don't be surprised if their company disappears at some point and with it their guarantee. I usually send things I have questions about to David Sear as soon as I get them so that I can use the lifetime guarantee if necessary. It's a little disturbing to hear how many David Sear coins have been shown to be fakes recently... John 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted June 19 · Member Share Posted June 19 This has nothing to do with returns, but Tom Vossen is fast becoming one of my favorite European dealers. Some others have better patinas or toned silver, but there's interesting stuff and the shipping is very prompt. I hopped on some Byzantines I wanted for a long time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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