Salomons Cat Posted June 17 · Member Share Posted June 17 (edited) I hope that i don't hurt too many feelings by bringing up Bitcoin. I assume many here share my aversion to the idea of virtual currencies. However, I must admit that I have no understanding of the technical background of cryptocurrencies. Without a doubt, some people have made significant money by speculating with Bitcoin. My hesitation to buy any Bitcoin might be more ideological and emotional than rational. I have several specific beliefs, such as: Cryptocurrencies are used on the dark web to finance crimes anonymously. Bitcoin is primarily used for speculation. Cryptocurrencies have no real practical utility (apart from financing crimes), and it's uncertain if this will ever change. Am I wrong in thinking this way? If anyone in the world could convince me that cryptocurrencies are good and useful, it might be a numismatist. Edited June 18 by Salomons Cat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry G Posted June 17 · Member Share Posted June 17 (edited) I don't like it either. It's pretty much unregulated, so lots of scams exist to con "investors", and it's hard to trace specific transactions so it's used a lot in scamming regular people too. On the Numismatics side of things, I was surprised to learn that "Physical bitcoins" exist (despite that being the very thing cryptocurrencies are trying to remove), and there are specialist auctions for them. I'm not sure what makes it fetch significantly more than the "face value" of the token, but apparently some people are into that kind of thing... https://coins.ha.com/c/search/results.zx?dept=1909&sold_status=1526&archive_state=5327&mode=archive&auction_name=3112&auction_year=2023&type=https://www.ngccoin.com/ Edited June 17 by Harry G 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted June 17 · Patron Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, Salomons Cat said: I hope that i don't hurt too many feelings by bringing up Bitcoin. I assume many here share my aversion to the idea of virtual currencies. However, I must admit that I have no understanding of the technical background of cryptocurrencies. Without a doubt, some people have made significant money by speculating with Bitcoin. My hesitation to buy any Bitcoin might be more ideological and emotional than rational. I have several specific beliefs, such as: Cryptocurrencies are used on the dark web to finance crimes anonymously. Bitcoin is primarily used for speculation. Cryptocurrencies have no other use beyond these two, and it's uncertain if this will ever change. Am I wrong in thinking this way? If anyone in the world could convince me that cryptocurrencies are good and useful, it might be a numismatist. You forgot "Cryptocurrencies are used by oligarchs who live in authoritarian nations to skirt economic sanctions." 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth77 Posted June 18 · Member Share Posted June 18 (edited) Besides the economic crimes, money laundering, rogue regimes and terrorists using it and the overall volatility that leaves room for all kinds of scams, there is also another aspect of the crypto bubble -- guys getting lured into it with bait of easy 'investment opportunities' who end up not only losing money but get sucked into the ideological morass that has gathered around the whole crypto ethos, where extreme ideas and radicalism are the norm. I had a friend who went into that hole, lost money, got into crypto forums to get 'tips and tricks' but ended up being swallowed by narcissistic gurus of the Gordon Gekko-wannabe type who also encourage erratic behavior in other aspects of life. So thanks to crypto and the culture around it, it takes only a few years to get from a regular reliable and decent fellow to an insufferable jerk that is ALSO POORER. Edited June 18 by seth77 1 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted June 18 · Supporter Share Posted June 18 I think the point was to set up a currency that isn't under the control of a nation. I'm not sure it solves anything by being that, though. Countries aren't much in control of their own currencies anyway. A byproduct of the way it is created - you can't make more Bitcoin in the way a central bank can print money - means it is more resistent to inflation. If demand increases, the price goes up quickly, because total supply is fixed. On the other hand, that means it can be incredibly volatile, which isn't great for an investor who isn't all about high risk chasing high reward. You have low transaction costs, which would be good for coin purchases, but then hardly anyone accepts them. There's also no consumer protection. They are very secure if no-one gets your verification key, but if you lose it, you lose everything. Even though they don't physically exist, they're also absolutely terrible for the environment. What seems to have happened is that while the reasons for using them are all very niche and not worth the effort for most people, the fact that they are volatile and unregulated (although not untraceable) has made them ideal for criminals and anyone wanting to get rich quick. Some people have indeed got rich quick. But the limited supply has meant they have become a massive Ponzi scheme, whereby holders of a cryptocurrency encourage everyone else to buy it so that their holdings increase in value. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Theodosius Posted June 18 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 18 People living in countries subject to hyperinflation convert their wages to cryptocurrency every payday to avoid losing all their wage value in a short time (like days or weeks). They can usually do it using just a phone so no need to travel to a bank. That is the only positive use I ever heard of. I agree with all the negatives people have stated and can add one more big one: it is a giant waste of electricity at a time when we need to conserve. Should be illegal and would not be surprised if it is outlawed in the future. John 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten-Speed Posted June 18 · Member Share Posted June 18 Since I don't understand cryptocurrency, I shy away from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted June 18 · Member Share Posted June 18 (edited) 3 hours ago, John Conduitt said: I think the point was to set up a currency that isn't under the control of a nation. Yes, I think partially that, partially a reaction to fiat currency in these inflationary times, and partly intended to allow anonymous transactions in a world where bank transfers and amounts of physical cash that one can carry into and out of countries are limited/tracked. Naturally the supposed anonymity attracted illegal uses, such as the "Silk Road" black market whose originator is now serving two life sentences... It turns out that Bitcoin is in fact far from being untrackable, and the underlying algorithms intended to ensure this are amenable to mathematical attack, which is why the fed are now cracking down hard on anonymizer services which attempt to launder bitcoin transactions. Ultimately Bitcoin and other crypto currencies have no inherent value other than the utility people find in them. While individual crypto currencies are designed to have a limited supply (unlike government's ability to print unlimited quantities of their national currencies), new ones keep popping up all the time, so the overall supply seems far from limited. Given the lack of any inherent value, investing in crypto seems akin to gambling, certainly no better than speculating in traditional currencies, and really worse since there is no real tie/grounding in macro economics, and some of them are quite shallowly held (easily manipulated). I'll stick with my ancient coin "investments". Edited June 18 by Heliodromus 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasiel Posted June 19 · Member Share Posted June 19 I'm not surprised to read unanimous negative comments regarding crypto on something as quaint and old fashioned as a group for coin collectors (of which of course I'm one!). It'd be like expecting to read praise for iPads on a reddit for Luddites. All the same I'll be happy to be the pro-crypto punching bag on this thread. So go ahead and grill me 😄 The main points raised I've been hearing for over a decade: - That it's used by and for criminals. As is, of course, every other major form of currency. How did criminals ever get by before?? - That it wastes energy. Yes, bitcoin is wasteful. Others, like Algorand, are carbon neutral or even carbon negative. It depends on the code design and aims of the particular crypto project. - That it's inherently worthless. Unlike, I guess, a paper rectangle with a dead president painted on it. Hmm. - That it's too volatile to be taken seriously, that it will lead you to financial ruin, that it will be stolen from you, that..... I've been a staunch believer in bitcoin since 2013. A substantial portion of my investment portfolio is allocated in various crypto projects. I know, or think I know, that those reading are set in their beliefs and looking only towards others likeminded for validation but in case there's genuine interest consider the following: - That dollar and those coins you believe to be "real money", and which is backed by the "full faith and credit of the US economy" is... losing value every single day. Not only is it losing value (the effect of inflation) but it's losing it an ever faster pace. In the last four years the purchasing power of the dollar has declined by an estimated 20%. - Bitcoin has returned higher yields than any other investment in history. It's also been the best investment asset for 8 out of the past 12 years. - Trillions of dollars are pouring into crypto - and away from other asset classes. Hedge funds, central banks, companies, billionaires, etc. What do they know that you don't? - The fiercest critics of crypto are banks and governments. Give some thoughts on why that would be. Do they have your best interests at heart? - Crypto is the one and only form of value that can't be confiscated by a government or other legal entity. - Crypto is the most portable, economical and efficient means of wealth transfer - Bitcoin is inherently deflationary. Name one traditional form of currency that can match this claim. Just one. Rasiel 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted June 19 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 19 About six years ago my wife was one of the first realtors to close a transaction funded from Bitcoin. One of our friends also owns a crypto trading site (not involved in the transaction). That being said, we're unanimous in our distaste for investing in crypto ourselves. I've looked into it at various times, even going so far as to sign up on Coinbase and buying an encryption device. I've also looked into NFTs. The primary issue is that people are trading something with no intrinsic value. This isn't the first time that's happened in history - the Dutch bulb panic was just one famous example - and it certainly seems inevitable that this will end up in a bad way for those investors involved. Sure, many have told me that this time it's different, but that's what they've said in the past too. To be brutally honest, I suspect my ancient coin collection would probably sell for less at market than I paid, but our real estate investments are a different matter. I'm a big fan of putting my money in something people need and has a limited supply. I don't know anyone who's truly struck it rich in crypto, but I know plenty who are living nicely from real estate. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted June 19 · Member Share Posted June 19 I like the privacy aspect of it, but if the poop really hit the fan, (i.e. there's no electricity), it would be useless. And it made PC video cards hideously expensive, at least in 2021. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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