Romismatist Posted July 6 · Member Share Posted July 6 Heads up, everyone... There are some new 3d century AD fakes showing up on EBay that can be pretty deceiving. Style is close enough to be dangerous for non-specialists, and the coins are convincingly patinated. They're of Tacitus, Probus, Diocletian and Maximinus. Posting the most convincing-looking ones here, with two "different" coins of Tacitus to show that they're identical, save for the patination. Caveat emptor, my friends. 16 4 1 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted July 6 · Supporter Share Posted July 6 Am I correct that these are struck fakes, not cast? The flan edges differ from coin to coin. The corrosion marks in the field above the orb held by Providentia on the Tacitus coins match. A detail which would usually suggest to me that a coin is genuine, but here is indicative that these are not. I wish people would not do this. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcwyler Posted July 6 · Member Share Posted July 6 Can I ask you to name the seller? They should be called out. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furryfrog02 Posted July 6 · Supporter Share Posted July 6 What markers are you seeing besides the orb that indicates these are fakes? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted July 6 · Patron Share Posted July 6 ...dang....those could fool me...the boogered edges lQQk manmade to me...but of course ii know already so....9_9...good spotting @Romismatist! 🙂 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romismatist Posted July 7 · Member Author Share Posted July 7 13 hours ago, Hrefn said: Am I correct that these are struck fakes, not cast? The flan edges differ from coin to coin. The corrosion marks in the field above the orb held by Providentia on the Tacitus coins match. A detail which would usually suggest to me that a coin is genuine, but here is indicative that these are not. I wish people would not do this. @Hrefn, I agree that these are struck, not cast. Style on some of the Probus coins is off, the Tacitus portrait is a little soapy but seems very close. Patination makes them look incredibly convincing to me, and I have been collecting around 40 years (although this is not my area of specialty). These were on EBay Germany. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romismatist Posted July 7 · Member Author Share Posted July 7 11 hours ago, mcwyler said: Can I ask you to name the seller? They should be called out. garfield_1982. To be fully transparent, the seller does question in his title if they are real, so this should set off some initial alarm bells in any event. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romismatist Posted July 7 · Member Author Share Posted July 7 11 hours ago, Furryfrog02 said: What markers are you seeing besides the orb that indicates these are fakes? Style on some of the coins is off and the two Tacitus coins I posted above are different coins but they are identical in every aspect. That is a real red flag. In addition, all coins are patinated in the same way... sometimes this indicates that they are part of the same hoard, but I don't think that this is the case here. If you have two exactly identical coins like the Tacitus ones, chances are that the others are fakes too. The coins may be pressed rather than struck, although there are convincing strike marks on some of them to indicate that they have been struck. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postvmvs Posted July 7 · Member Share Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Romismatist said: These were on EBay Germany. I wonder if they bought them from here: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasiel Posted July 7 · Member Share Posted July 7 These aren't new, or could very well be in a technical sense, but is the same individual or group of people who has been selling them on ebay for nearly 20 years now. At one time I received literally hundreds of these in a group of uncleaneds. Once the first wave was publicized the perps switched tactics to selling via turnstile accounts. Anyway, they're all pressed fakes made from genuine coins and once you know what to look for you basically can't unsee it. Being pressed they all have the same soapy surface and cookie cutter flans. However, when victims (typically newer collectors starting out with uncleaneds) work them over they become a lot harder to detect from online as they're now individualized not just in their treatments but from the varying photo skills when resold. However, they still should stand out to most people who have hands-on experience with LRBs. Rasiel 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romismatist Posted July 8 · Member Author Share Posted July 8 22 hours ago, Postvmvs said: I wonder if they bought them from here: Very likely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romismatist Posted July 8 · Member Author Share Posted July 8 21 hours ago, rasiel said: These aren't new, or could very well be in a technical sense, but is the same individual or group of people who has been selling them on ebay for nearly 20 years now. At one time I received literally hundreds of these in a group of uncleaneds. Once the first wave was publicized the perps switched tactics to selling via turnstile accounts. Anyway, they're all pressed fakes made from genuine coins and once you know what to look for you basically can't unsee it. Being pressed they all have the same soapy surface and cookie cutter flans. However, when victims (typically newer collectors starting out with uncleaneds) work them over they become a lot harder to detect from online as they're now individualized not just in their treatments but from the varying photo skills when resold. However, they still should stand out to most people who have hands-on experience with LRBs. Rasiel Thanks for the confirmation and additional context, @rasiel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Ancient Coin Hunter Posted July 8 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 8 Hard initially to identify them as fakes. If I saw just one of them I might be fooled. But the nagging similarity suggests fakes including identical strike patterns. That should give anyone pause after the red flag has been raised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted July 8 · Supporter Share Posted July 8 May I ask someone to explain if my understanding of pressed fakes is correct? A genuine coin is used to make the die by pressing the coin into metal, resulting in an incuse image which is a fairly accurate mirror image of the real coin. This die is used to strike the fake coins. The die lacks the crispness of the original die, which was produced by engraving. Hence the fake coins are truly struck fakes, which means their edges will not betray the deception in the way cast coins often do. The mushiness or soapiness of the devices and lettering is the sole clue to the scam, unless multiple identical coins sharing the same obverse and reverse dies come on the market. Soapiness I assume means the coins are more slick than a coin struck from engraved dies. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postvmvs Posted July 8 · Member Share Posted July 8 These are made from transfer dies created from copying a genuine coin. So all details, including any defects (scratches etc) from the original are replicated. No replication method is perfect so there is inevitably a loss of detail in the resulting transfer dies. I won't speculate on exactly how these transfer dies were made. There is already a lot of fanciful and probably incorrect speculation online about how they could be created, not how they were created. One distinction between these and genuine ancient coins is that they were pressed using a hydraulic press, instead of being struck with a hammer blow. Coins made by pressing have very uniform flat surfaces, since a hydraulic press produces a very even pressure. A secondary indication of pressing (not always present) is that if the flan splits, it is many small even splits around the entire edge of the coin, again due to the even pressure. What really stands out to me about these fakes is the fabric. The flan and composition are not correct. The patination is not very convincing. These were not made to fool experts. When sold together in groups they really stick out. These fakes will be more dangerous years later when they re-enter the market as singletons, especially if they acquire better "make-up". Soapiness refers to when a coin feels slippery in the hand due to unusual surfaces. Often people describe cast fakes as feeling soapy. I am not sure it really applies here, but I think people are trying to relate that the surfaces do not look right. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.