A Denarius from the young Caracalla, that has "never" been on sale?

[kirispupis]

I do have to say these debates are getting tiring.

Looking at the original post, @Prieure de Sion didn't link to his coin for sale AFAICT, and even if he did there would be no issue with that as others have pointed out.

The funny thing I find regarding this coin is that I believe the only thing unique about it are the combination of inscriptions. I've often found it amusing how Roman collectors pay up to the nose for extremely rare inscriptions but otherwise common obverses + reverses. I wish this were suddenly the case with Greeks so my collection would be worth a fortune. 🙂 

But seriously, this isn't something to get worked up about.

[Salomons Cat]

@kirispupis, I find this not „tiring“, but unacceptable. And this is not a „debate“; these are repeated trolling attacks personally targeting another member. This should not be tolerated.

PdS simply shared his new coin. And I consider him a very valuable member of this board - in contrast to you, @TheTrachyEnjoyer, @El Cazador, and @ajax. You stifled any discussion about this coin from the start. And this is not the first time. I’ve rarely seen anything from you other than trolling and personal attacks against individual members. No matter how many collectors explain to you that dealers play an essential role in numismatics, you‘re obviously not interested in any kind of reasonable discussion. I’m fed up with it.

@Prieure de Sion, I think that this is a fascinating and beautiful coin, congratulations!

[El Cazador]

56 minutes ago, Salomons Cat said:

@kirispupis, I find this not „tiring“, but unacceptable. And this is not a „debate“; these are repeated trolling attacks personally targeting another member. This should not be tolerated.

PdS simply shared his new coin. And I consider him a very valuable member of this board - in contrast to you, @TheTrachyEnjoyer, @El Cazador, and @ajax. You stifled any discussion about this coin from the start. And this is not the first time. I’ve rarely seen anything from you other than trolling and personal attacks against individual members. No matter how many collectors explain to you that dealers play an essential role in numismatics, you‘re obviously not interested in any kind of reasonable discussion. I’m fed up with it.

@Prieure de Sion, I think that this is a fascinating and beautiful coin, congratulations!

We appreciate your feedback, but it has 0 use or application here…

self-promotion or display of coins for sale shouldn’t be allowed on discussion boards… generalizing feedback accusations of trolling and some other rubbish, just because you don’t agree with our comments and views shouldn’t be allowed here.

Edited July 12 by El Cazador

[DonnaML]

Please stop it, guys. The owner of this forum has officially declared that there was nothing wrong with @Prieure de Sion's post.  (And, as @kirispupis points out, he didn't even mention that it's for sale elsewhere. NTTWBAWTT.) So, enough already. 

[Prieure de Sion]

6 hours ago, El Cazador said:

This is not an adds board, we don’t promote goods or services here

Wow wow.... what's going on here? Is this still about interesting coins and our great hobby? 

First. You are not the forum. You are not the majority of users here. And the administrator makes the rules here. You dont like the rules from the forum owner? Then sorry leave.

Secondly. Even IF I HAD advertised, it would not have been banned here. Many dealers have already linked sales here. For a while there were even so-called "coin of the day" threads from dealers here - there have also been advertisements with special discounts for forum members. 

Thirdly. And now the most important thing. But I think, as always, you will twist this answer or not answer it at all. WHERE did I advertise? Where? How?

Can you see my company logo in the picture? Do you see any indication in the text that this coin is from my store? Do you see a link to the sales offer in the text? I see a picture of a coin, a description of Baldwin and then I see two links - one link goes to Baldwin, one link goes to Numisbids.

Where, please tell me where is there an advertisement to the sales page? Where?

I'm sure, as always, I won't get a direct answer with real arguments from you. You will either evade or not really answer this question with arguments. Come on - show me a sign of advertising in the starting post! 

 

5 hours ago, Restitutor said:

I would note that in this instance I don’t even see Prieure attempting to sell the coin in this thread anyways, so not sure why it’s being viewed by some as an ad.

I would say that too. I even deliberately removed all references (logo), I didn't use my description texts but Baldwin's and I only linked Baldwin and Numisbids. I avoided any reference to myself. I don't know how they can come up with intentional advertising here.

Unless - if they just want to troll!

 

5 hours ago, El Cazador said:

@Ryroyou are probably the most sourly sensitive member who doesn’t like anyone.

And this is where I think the line is slowly being crossed!

I don't like to judge Ryro personally, because I don't know Ryro personally. But I do know that he is a very active member here and enriches the forum with his many contributions (as do many other users here).

You @El Cazador have started to insult the user and that has no place here! Now I'm talking about the "we". What is really not tolerated here are constant attempts to discredit and insult users and, above all, to constantly cause stress and a bad atmosphere.

I (and apparently others as well) notice that you @El Cazador and @ajax are not really participating and engaging here with contributions on the subject of coins. If you two stand out, it's always when there's trouble. Here you can pursue your hobby in a peaceful atmosphere. You two keep trying to provoke arguments in threads where there is no reason for it! There is no reason here, because advertising is not actually forbidden by the forum rules, but there hasn't even been any advertising here! And yet, regardless, you're trying to cause trouble.

 

@El Cazador and @ajax why don't you take part in this great hobby and if you don't like it here, if you don't like the rules the administrator has made here, if you don't like the users - then please go to another forum. Thank you.

 

My goodness, what a kindergarten by these two users. The whole thread is broken. Not only my coin, which I find really interesting, but also the other coins shown on the topic by other users. That's how you can ruin interesting threads - for nothing. What a "garbage thread" now. Hey @El Cazador and @ajax - if you both have a problem with me, ok, write me a PN and then you can let out all your frustrations of life. Call me names, insult me - it's ok.  But leave the forum and its threads alone on your personal crusade. Thanks!

And now I would like to get back to interesting private things - our great coins. 

 

Edited July 12 by Prieure de Sion

[Prieure de Sion]

I have some small updates of my Caracalla Denarius coin.

 

The consignor has identified himself on Facebook. However, I don't know whether he only passed the coin on himself or collected it himself. Nor do I know the background. I have now written to the former owner myself on Facebook.

He had already done his own research.

On RIC (343) there is this type as Denarius and Aureus - but no pictures of it.

At Cohen it is the reference number 408 - but Cohen only writes that it is the same type as the Aureus (Cohen 407) and gives no further information.

The consignor has also found a reference to BMC 718 - but after checking this is the Aureus of this type.

 

Apparently the coin was - or is - slabbed? I don't know if it is still capsuled or not. Did the consignor remove the NGC capsule? I'll probably only find out later.

https://www.ngccoin.uk/certlookup/6945878-022/NGCAncients/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1_qHd32PWeFfTJctliuHznRY_b6iBtsxUhpofAypzl6fX7CBJawyQSvRk_aem_-5P1WbQtx-ydlfHc3CzfJw 

 

[Sulla80]

A very interesting coin @Prieure de Sion, I don't have anything as interesting, but I'll post a few Caracalla's, as I know that at least some people come to this forum to see and learn about coins 😊 The first two come with a fun "movie script" that was one offered by @dougsmit and I've included with my coins from Caracalla and Geta here: https://www.sullacoins.com/post/sibling-rivalry.

The script that was proposed goes like this:

• Caracalla throws a tantrum when told that Geta was made Caesar
• Septimius tried to placate him by changing the details on the implements and adding the legend "Destination Emperor" (note missing legend on my first coin [DESTINATO IMPERAT])
• Caracalla still not satisfied was made Augustus

Admittedly a work of historical fiction - that to me doesn't seem far from some reality given the way Geta ends up in the history.

"The two sons left by Septimius Severus, Geta and Bassianus, both received the surname Antoninus, one from the army, the other from his father, but Geta was declared a public enemy, while Bassianus got the empire."
-Historia Augusta, The Life of Antoninus Caracalla, 1.1

Caracalla as Caesar, AD 196-198, AR denarius, Rome mint, struck AD 196-198
Obv: M AVR ANTON-CAES PONTIF, bare headed, draped bust of Caracalla right, seen from behind
Rev: [DESTINATO IMPERAT], priestly implements: lituus, apex, bucranium, simpulum
Ref: RIC IV 6

Caracalla as Caesar, AD 196-198, AR denarius, Rome mint, struck AD 196
Obv: M AVR ANTONINVS CAES, bareheaded, draped, and cuirassed bust right
Rev: SEVERI AVG PII FIL, Priestly implements: lituus, cultellus, capis, simpulum, and aspergillum
Ref: RIC IV 4

Caracalla as Augustus, AR Denarius, Rome, AD 216
Obv: ANTONINVS PIVS AVG GERM, laureate head to right
Rev: P M TR P XVIIII COS IIII P P, Jupiter seated to left, holding Victory and sceptre, eagle at feet
Ref: RIC IV 277c

Caracalla (securing the world), AR Denarius, Rome, circa AD 198-199, 18.5mm 3.35g
Obv: IMP CAES M AVR ANTON AVG, laureate and draped bust right
Rev: SECVRIT ORBIS, Securitas seated right on throne, resting head upon hand and holding sceptre; lighted and garlanded altar to right
Ref: RSC 571; RIC 22(a); BMC S118;

Here's a "Securit Orbis" - securitas displays a "Languid air" is a perfect description for a carefree world with thanks to Caracalla!

Edited July 16 by Sulla80

[Prieure de Sion]

8 minutes ago, Sulla80 said:

I don't have anything as interesting,

You have a very interesting Website with fantastic and interesting coins 🙂 ... I visit your website often.

Thanks for sharing your beautiful examples.

[Prieure de Sion]

Update II

It went relatively quickly, the consignor just wrote back to me and roughly described the situation. 

He didn't want to sell the coin at first, but he met Dom von Baldwins at a coin fair. Apparently there was wine for free tasting - and as a result of too much alcohol, the coin was brought in. What stories life sometimes writes.

The consignor himself spent a long time looking for it. He also looked outside the Internet in many auction catalogues - he even searched through group lots for the same specimen. But he didn't find anything either.
 
The owner before him was a collector from London who started collecting coins in the 1960s and was offered for sale by his niece after his death. The collection was auctioned off by an auction house specialising in the auctioning of agricultural machinery 😄 

This is where the collection and the Caracalla come from:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-shropshire-67415683 

That's all for now.

 

----
Offtopic. Auctioned by the niece at an agricultural machinery auction house. And probably many of the coins without information. What I want to say is that it always reminds me how much energy, love and time we put into the details of the coins. And in the end, if things go wrong, such a personal collection is torn up and scattered and all the information is lost.

[Sulla80]

3 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

The collection was auctioned off by an auction house specialising in the auctioning of agricultural machinery 😄 

Fantastic that you were able to track down the sale!  A letter to my relatives on choice of auction venue is something that I will have to write have to put in a prominent position.

[Prieure de Sion]

7 minutes ago, Sulla80 said:

Fantastic that you were able to track down the sale!  A letter to my relatives on choice of auction venue is something that I will have to write have to put in a prominent position.

Seriously. That really makes me think.

Look Sulla, you have such a great collection. I know your website and your great collection of information and details about your coins. And then what? Long may you live - but then what?

Imagine your descendants putting the coins up for auction. There they are sold in groups. Or without any information. Let's assume you have found out great things about individual coins. Some coins may even have a great story behind them. But then? Everything gone? 

Let's be honest. My family isn't interested in coins. Like most people here probably do. For them, it's just money that you can generate. My collection would simply be sold - without emotion.

But ok, I'm dead - maybe I won't care anymore. Or I'll visit my family from the afterlife and annoy them at night.

[akeady]

This must have been the auction - many group lots of great-looking denarii and bargains.

https://fineart.hallsgb.com/auction/search/?sd=2&sto=0&au=328&sf=[]&w=False&mc=696&pn=3&g=1

E.g., lot 221 (is the coin one of these?):

ATB,
Aidan.

Edited July 12 by akeady

[akeady]

11 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Seriously. That really makes me think.

Look Sulla, you have such a great collection. I know your website and your great collection of information and details about your coins. And then what? Long may you live - but then what?

Imagine your descendants putting the coins up for auction. There they are sold in groups. Or without any information. Let's assume you have found out great things about individual coins. Some coins may even have a great story behind them. But then? Everything gone? 

Let's be honest. My family isn't interested in coins. Like most people here probably do. For them, it's just money that you can generate. My collection would simply be sold - without emotion.

But ok, I'm dead - maybe I won't care anymore. Or I'll visit my family from the afterlife and annoy them at night.

I will sell my coins and hope to enjoy the proceeds in my retirement - whether I'll end up with a cheap Ryanair flight or a villa somewhere nice from said proceeds remains to be seen!

ATB,
Aidan.

[Prieure de Sion]

9 minutes ago, akeady said:

This must have been the auction - many group lots of great-looking denarii and bargains.

https://fineart.hallsgb.com/auction/search/?sd=2&sto=0&au=328&sf=[]&w=False&mc=696&pn=3&g=1

E.g., lot 221 (is the coin one of these?):

Thanks for that great search! Yes I think so.

Oh what a ... so many fantastic coins and all in group lots 😞 

 

9 minutes ago, akeady said:

I will sell my coins and hope to enjoy the proceeds in my retirement - whether I'll end up with a cheap Ryanair flight or a villa somewhere nice from said proceeds remains to be seen!

Not the badest idea....! 

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

I don't see any issue with @Prieure de Sion posting this coin on the forum. We are all involved in the universe of ancient coins. Sellers, Buyers, etc. Buyers often become Consignors, so is there anything wrong with them posting info about their coins coming up for auction? No.

[Heliodromus]

25 minutes ago, akeady said:

This must have been the auction - many group lots of great-looking denarii and bargains.

https://fineart.hallsgb.com/auction/search/?sd=2&sto=0&au=328&sf=[]&w=False&mc=696&pn=3&g=1

Ouch!

 

Quote

 

They belonged to a man from London who started collecting coins in the 1960s and were put up for sale by his niece following his death.

Halls auctioneers in Shrewsbury, who are handling the sale, said it was rare to see a collection of this size.

 

This makes me sad. The deceased collector obviously had made no plans for sale of his collection, so they end up at an in inappropriate auction house with high quality coins being sold at in large lots and fetching a fraction of what they were worth.

[Restitutor]

Please keep the focus of this thread on the topic at hand, which is the coin Prieure posted and any relevant follow-ups. I have hidden a number of posts that are not germane to the topic. 

If you have any issues with how this forum is run and/or would like to see something changed, please post your thoughts here:

[maridvnvm]

There are several examples of the Severan coinage of this period that are only known from a very small number of examples even though they are calalogued.

I focus on Septimius Severus rather than the remainder of the family though have more than a passing interest in the rest of the family.

Here are a couple of examples of what I mean....

Septimius Severus denarius

Obv:– L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate head right
Rev:– RESTITVTOR VRBIS, Severus in military garb standing left sacrificing over a tripod
Minted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 198-202
Reference:– BMCRE 671. RIC 512A (S). RSC 600

Last T in RESTITVTOR re-engraved from an O.

I have the following notes from discussing the coin with Cutis Clay at the time.

"it's very rare at the Eastern mint!

None in Reka Devnia hoard. Cohen 600 cites no source, so not in Paris in his day.

Specimens in my handwritten denarius catalogue, which is just a start, far from complete: BM 671, pl. 44.12 (P. Tinchant Gift, 1938); Vienna; Oxford; Budapest. Barry Murphy had a specimen: Sev-185.

Of special interest with regard to your new acquisition: in 2009 I acquired a specimen from Lanz which according to my note had the following peculiarity: "TOR in rev. legend oversize and in high relief, apparently corrected". I expect it will be from the same rev. die as yours, but at the moment cannot lay hands on the coin itself to confirm."

Septimius Severus denarius

Obv:– L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate head right
Rev:– IOVI CONSERVATORI Jupiter seated to left on throne with a back, holding Victory and long scepter
Minted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 199-202
Reference:– RIC 504a. BMCRE Pg. 286 •. Both citing L A Lawrence ESQ., F.R.C.S. collection

Weight 3.13g. 18.72mm. 180 degrees

The L A Lawrence died in 1949 and collection was sold off by Glendening's across 7 auctions in 1950 and 1951. His denarii of Septimius Severus were sold in un-illustrated lots. The destination of his example of RIC 504a is unknown. It doesn't appear to have been purchased by the BM, who were given first refusal on any coins from his collection. The BM database contains 5 examples from Rome but none from Laodicea.

I have discussed the coin with Curtis Clay and he is aware of one example other than mine, which is a double die match to mine and is in his own collection. 

[akeady]

2 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Thanks for that great search! Yes I think so.

Oh what a ... so many fantastic coins and all in group lots 😞 

 

Not the badest idea....! 

From the tags, it looks like many of the coins were bought at Charing Cross Market - I haven't been to that, but I have heard that it was a good source of coins at one time.

Others mention "Andy Barratt, Holiday Inn Coin Fair" - this is likely the London Coin Fair, which was held in the Holiday Inn in London until recently - it's moved out to Shepherd's Bush for the most recent fair (last month).

There were a lot of nice coins that went cheaply - I'm sure we all wish we would bump into an auction like that 😄

ATB,

Aidan.

Edited July 12 by akeady

[Sulla80]

22 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

But ok, I'm dead - maybe I won't care anymore. Or I'll visit my family from the afterlife and annoy them at night.

I think I'll stick with Option A : "I'm dead - maybe I won't care anymore" and I know the website will cease to exist once I stop paying the fees for domain and hosting services. Although I like the idea from @akeady, hopefully villa prices in my country of birth (Tuscany, Italy) will not keep pace with ancient coin prices in the coming years.

Edited July 13 by Sulla80

[Prieure de Sion]

For all who don’t know we talk about - here is the wonderful page: 

https://www.sullacoins.com

 

6 hours ago, Sulla80 said:

I think I'll stick with Option A : "I'm dead - maybe I won't care anymore" and I know the website will cease to exist once I stop paying the feels for domain and hosting services.

But it's a shame to lose this work and information. You should make an ebook out of it 🙂