Are we going to let NGC and modern coin collectors view ruin our hobby and market?

[MrZun]

Just gonna post this nice and short article. What you guys think?

http://augustuscoins.com/ed/numis/NGC.html

[DonnaML]

I didn't think the smoothing on that sestertius is beyond what one typically sees, especially in bronzes with reasonably old pedigrees. I'm shocked that NGC gave the coin a surface rating of 1/5 for that sort of smoothing alone, without any evidence of actual tooling. 

[CPK]

To my eyes, the smoothing on that sestertius does seem a little overdone. 1/5 may be a little harsh but I would expect a bad score on that point.

I'm not radically anti-slab, but I do agree on the whole that the NGC grading/slabbing system is much more suited to modern coins than to ancients. Although personally, I prefer even my modern coins raw and un-slabbed.

While I'm sure that there is a percentage of the market that is swayed by NGC grades/labels, from everything I've experienced in this hobby over the past few years I think it's a pretty small percentage.

[El Cazador]

Appropriate grading of 1 for smoothed coin. I never buy bronze out of slabs, extremely risky move and article emphasized just that

 

[traveler]

How does NGC "ruin our hobby and market"? The grades NGC gives are completely irrelevant to me as I can see the coin and form an opinion. 

Personally I appreciate lower prices too!

 

 

 

[Al Kowsky]

It's very difficult to discern smoothing from photos, using an in-hand video would give you a better look. We all know grading is a subjective science & large bronze coins are the most difficult to grade. Silver & billon coins rarely get smoothed or tooled. I have sent many coins to NGC for slabbing & I usually agree with their determination. Early this year I sent a group of Byzantine coins to Stack's & Bowers Galley for auction with one bronze coin raw. They wanted it slabbed & I was pensive about getting it slabbed because of the green deposits, so S&B had the great idea of getting it graded on the economy level where Strike & Surface are not posted, only the condition is. I didn't spot any smoothing or tooling on the coin but I felt they would give the surface a low number because of the green deposits. If collectors are worried about getting low numbers for Strike & Surface, use the economy level. 

[Al Kowsky]

A long time ago I had a scarce Constantine I nummus grade by NGC & the surface came back 2/5 😮, & thought it was better than that. The coin graded AU & the strike was 5/5. The obverse of the coin is immaculate with traces of silvering. The reverse has light porosity on the left side. What do you think 🤔?

[rasiel]

While I'm personally strongly anti-slab for my own collection I believe it has its pluses. In fact, I'm sure that on the balance it's been more helpful than negative to the hobby. It has turned in more than a few coin collectors from American to ancient, sometimes to the point they switch entirely. It's come in handy when shopping on ebay where you can more or less take it for granted that if it's in a slab it must be legit. And it's absolutely undeniable that a coin in a slab is better protected than one on a tray or left in a flip.

Live and let live, y'know?

Rasiel

[David Atherton]

What the price comparison between now and then tells me is that bidders have a lower tolerance for smoothing than they did "back in the day".

BTW, I agree with the NGC, surface rating ... the smoothing is a bit overcooked. 

[MrMonkeySwag96]

I don’t think NGC ruins the ancient coin hobby, it’s the ignorance of collectors of US coins that merely “dabble” in ancient coins that ruin the hobby. They want the ancient coin market to conform to the practices of the US coin market, like “Greysheet” style pricing, ignoring the fact that there are many other factors that affect ancient coin values besides grade. And they use NGC slabs as an excuse to not research more in depth into the complexities of ancient coins. You see a lot of these guys on Facebook, YouTube, and Reddit. 

Edited July 22 by MrMonkeySwag96

[Rand]

I think every 5-10K+ coin must be independently graded, whether slabbed or not (I prefer unslabbled).

Judging Heritage sales, many collectors (including myself) prefer original coins without smoothing or brushing. Technical grading helps make price decisions and avoid disappointment in receiving smoothed, clipped, or slightly bent coins. Photos and videos are helpful but still can be inadequate, for example, for brushed coins. A few of my 'best' coins, bought as NAC 'almost FDC' or CNG 'Choice EF', were brushed. 

I have NGC graded brushed coins for the 'academic' part of my collection. I need a loop to reliably detect it. So 'yes' to TPG from me.

[Salomons Cat]

2 hours ago, Rand said:

I think every 5-10K+ coin must be independently graded, whether slabbed or not (I prefer unslabbled).

I think that this is not the case. You're right that NGC is very good at detecting brush strokes that are barely visible to anyone else.
But @John Conduitt made a very good point about the "guarantee" provided by NGC a while ago, here:

On 4/9/2024 at 8:37 PM, John Conduitt said:

Who would be out of pocket if the slabbed ancient you bought from Heritage for $100,000 turned out to be fake? Heritage won't guarantee it because they can't see inside the slab. NGC will not guarantee it because 'all ancients are different'. So does that mean you just lose your money? If the auction house thinks it has removed its liability, then they are being disingenuous by offering slabs.

The argument for slabs is almost always based on authenticity. You even hear people say that you should buy anything expensive in a slab since there are so many fakes. But on this basis, you shouldn't buy an expensive coin in a slab if you do not already know it isn't fake.

I agree with this statement. NGC does not authenticate ancient coins. Ideally, the responsibility for grading and authentication should lie with the seller, who should be held accountable. Any other approach puts the buyer at a disadvantage.
And I think that this responsability should be one of the main reasons why about 20-40% of the coin price goes to the auction house.

Edited July 22 by Salomons Cat

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

I have not heard of "brushing" before. Technically what does that mean?

[Rand]

@Salomons Cat

This thread discusses coin condition grading. Authenticity grading is a different matter, and NGC does not guarantee it.

Your points are correct in an ideal world. In the real world, sellers are not accountable for grading and are often specific about this in the TOS. We are on our our with our decisions.

Grading is subjective, even for modern American coins, where most expertise exists. NGC does its best to be as objective as possible and has more expertise and quality control than most sellers. Providing accurate grading is crucial for their business survival, which may differ for a seller.

I burnt my fingers buying an expensive coin that I thought was the best that exists (ex Sotheby's). It turned a beautiful but brushed mint state. 

 

 

 

Edited July 22 by Rand

[Rand]

@Ancient Coin Hunter

Brushing refers to the subtle polishing of flans (this is my non-official definition). It's more subtle than smoothing. It automatically drops the grade from MS 5/5 to MS 5/3 (again, my perception) and tends to reduce the price by 30-50%.

Try searching Heritage's website for sold 'aureus'. There are plenty of examples.

[John Conduitt]

11 hours ago, El Cazador said:

Appropriate grading of 1 for smoothed coin. I never buy bronze out of slabs, extremely risky move and article emphasized just that

 

This is the point being made in the question. It’s only “extremely risky” if you believe every bit of smoothing is an absolute disaster, a view that only exists because of TPGs and the hell that is collecting modern US coins. You believe their marketing story and give your money to them as they intended.

I would think all collectors would prefer a coin that wasn’t smoothed. But the TPGs have placed a ridiculous premium on what they consider good. They turn collecting into a score - and very often their scores don’t match up. The frequent claim that a coin is “the best known” (i.e. of the few graded by that TPG) is usually nonsense while other coins might as well be destroyed. TPGs are a representation of cancel culture.

I think ancients collectors might hate TPGs less if they got rid of the scores entirely and instead gave their opinion on authenticity, whether there is tooling/smoothing/repairing and where it is. Just saying ‘1’ or ‘tooled’ is not enough and causes strange distortions in prices. Even so, they only distort the market - they don’t dictate it.

[Heliodromus]

2 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

I think ancients collectors might hate TPGs less if they got rid of the scores entirely

Yes, but OTOH I suspect that for slab buyers the score is in reality the only reason they want the slab, and of course NGC are well aware of that.

Here's the only slabbed coin I own, and an example of how daft NGC's slab labeling is. Note lack of any attribution (the type is unlisted!), or attempt at dating (other than the inane "sometime during Constantine's reign" **), and a meaningless 1/5 surface score. No historical note as to what the piercing implies (trade use - Indian) either.

** Which in fact started in 306, not 307, and this coin most likely does date to 306.

The good news is that the flipper who bought this raw and somehow thought that selling it slabbed at Heritage would be a good idea (😂) lost half their money, and I was able to buy it extremely cheap, having previously been outbid when it was raw.

 

 

Edited July 22 by Heliodromus

[Molag Bal]

12 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

It's very difficult to discern smoothing from photos, using an in-hand video would give you a better look. We all know grading is a subjective science & large bronze coins are the most difficult to grade. Silver & billon coins rarely get smoothed or tooled. I have sent many coins to NGC for slabbing & I usually agree with their determination. Early this year I sent a group of Byzantine coins to Stack's & Bowers Galley for auction with one bronze coin raw. They wanted it slabbed & I was pensive about getting it slabbed because of the green deposits, so S&B had the great idea of getting it graded on the economy level where Strike & Surface are not posted, only the condition is. I didn't spot any smoothing or tooling on the coin but I felt they would give the surface a low number because of the green deposits. If collectors are worried about getting low numbers for Strike & Surface, use the economy level. 

Some of NGC's ratings are downright nonsensical. I think you made the right decision going for the type of grading you did. See this Aurelian aureus for example. It hammered for over $14,000 in 2023 at Roma. Someone slabbed and tried to flip it, but it backfired since it got graded 5/5 2/5 and then sold for $11,000 at Heritage earlier this year. 

[El Cazador]

58 minutes ago, Molag Bal said:

Some of NGC's ratings are downright nonsensical. I think you made the right decision going for the type of grading you did. See this Aurelian aureus for example. It hammered for over $14,000 in 2023 at Roma. Someone slabbed and tried to flip it, but it backfired since it got graded 5/5 2/5 and then sold for $11,000 at Heritage earlier this year. 

Note to flippers- don’t be greedy! Hold at least for a few years:)

[mcwyler]

Living as I do in the UK, I rarely even see slabs (although they are beginning to be more common at price levels well out of my orbit). I have just one slabbed coin, one of only 3 purchased from US dealers:

It was a good price and I like it. Despite the slab., which doesn't really bother me and it rated it Ch XF which is as nice as I expect ever to own. That means - just looked it up - that there are 25 higher grades on the Sheldon scale. Do modern collectors take this stuff that seriously? I'll stick to my oldies, thanks..

[Rand]

1 hour ago, Molag Bal said:

Someone slabbed and tried to flip it, but it backfired since it got graded 5/5 2/5 and then sold for $11,000 at Heritage earlier this year. 

Do we know if the Heritage seller was a dealer or a collector frustrated by the coin not meeting their expectations?

 

These are descriptions of the aureus in recent previous sales

• Roma Auction 29 09/11/2023. Mint State; highly lustrous and attractive.
• CNG Auction 121 06/10/2022. Lustrous, a few shallow marks and faint hairlines. Choice EF.
• Roma Auction 22 07/10/2021. Mint State; hairline scratches in fields, otherwise highly lustrous and attractive.
• Gorny & Mosch Auction 265 14/10/2019. Kratzer im Feld, vz

NGC grade is not indisputable here, but their grading would not stop me wanting the coin, and as a buyer I would like seeing their report.

 

PS. NGC may exaggerate the impact of brushing on the grading, but it is a deterrent to those tempted to 'improve' coins. The message is: leave the coins as they are. There will be no profit from modifying them.

Edited July 22 by Rand

[idesofmarch01]

One of the issues being (unknowingly) debated in this thread is each collector’s personal and subjective definition of “smoothing.”  Unless each post contains that collector’s definition of smoothing, it’s nearly impossible to find consensus among the different viewpoints in this thread.

Before posting my own observations about the opinions and preferences in this thread, I’ll start with my own definition of smoothing (which I’ve posted numerous times here and in the previous forum) as applied to ancient AEs.

At some point an ancient AE coin ceased circulating – whether it was lost, saved, hoarded, etc. – and was in a certain condition when this event happened.  Ideally, this is the condition in which you’d like to recover the coin.  But unless the coin was submerged in (e.g.) a river, debris and detritus will form on the surface over time.  This is especially true of AEs due to the reactivity of CU (copper) in the coin’s alloy.  

When the coin is found and cleaned, in addition to removing the dirt (which itself could be considered smoothing!), it's pretty much inevitable that some debris and detritus that formed and adhered as a result of chemical interaction will also be removed.  Since this debris was NOT part of the coin when it ceased circulating, it can be reasonably argued that the coin’s condition is not being enhanced by this process.  When it was circulating, the coin’s surface – especially the fields – would have been mostly smooth due to circulation wear.  Removing adhered debris in order to restore the coin to this state is my definition of smoothing.

Here's the difficult part: the adhered debris could contain parts of the coin’s metal due to the chemical interactivity of copper.  So some of the coin is possibly being removed in the process of removing the debris that wasn’t part of the coin at any time during its circulation.  Is this acceptable to you as a collector?  Would you prefer to have a coin with no post-circulation debris removed, even though this isn’t an accurate representation of the coin when it ceased circulating?

Of course, we all have our subjective ideas of what an “overly smoothed” AE looks like, and maybe the coin cited in this thread fits your definition of overly smoothed.  Personally, while I agree that this coin has been more aggressively smoothed than other AEs, it doesn’t appear to be tooled and I would certainly consider acquiring it if I wanted it for my collection.  

With respect to the originally posted coin: I think NGC’s 1/5 surface rating (based on the smoothing) is absurdly harsh and is an example of trying to over-simplify the evaluation of ancient coins for beginners and speculators who don’t want to take the time themselves, or engage the services of experts,  to decide whether to acquire an ancient coin.  While it can be argued that an NGC slab is an implied endorsement of authenticity, it’s not a guarantee so in that respect its value is marginal.  

The only other measurable effect that an NGC slab can have on an ancient coin is to increase its price if the numerical ratings are high and the coin is accompanied by a star or other positive description.  It’s understandable that this may be important to novice collectors and speculators who plan to sell the coin in the near- or long-term, but note that a less-than-optimal rating will have the opposite effect on the coin's value for those who rely on the TPG's grade.  

Spending a little time researching similar coins on the Internet, especially with the availability of high-quality pictures, and forming your own judgement about the condition of the coin, would seem to me to be a better process than solely relying on a third-party grading system and a slab.

Edited July 22 by idesofmarch01

[MrMonkeySwag96]

11 hours ago, mcwyler said:

Living as I do in the UK, I rarely even see slabs (although they are beginning to be more common at price levels well out of my orbit). I have just one slabbed coin, one of only 3 purchased from US dealers:

It was a good price and I like it. Despite the slab., which doesn't really bother me and it rated it Ch XF which is as nice as I expect ever to own. That means - just looked it up - that there are 25 higher grades on the Sheldon scale. Do modern collectors take this stuff that seriously? I'll stick to my oldies, thanks..

Ancient coins graded XF at auction houses look like coins that would grade AU on the Sheldon Scale.

 

For comparison, here is my US $3 gold coin graded AU 58 by NGC. AU 58 is the highest grade a coin can be while still retaining slight traces of wear. Any grade higher than AU 58 is Mint State. 

 

 

 

 

Here is my Capped Bust half dollar graded XF 40. XF 40 is considered the “lower end” of XF. A few fellow collectors told me my coin was under-graded by NGC. Who knows, maybe I’ll get a green sticker for it:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 23 by MrMonkeySwag96

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

It's an interesting discussion.  Valentinian makes a great point that perceptions of smoothing have changed and the smoothing did make the coin affordable.  The more modern price is within the range of the inflationary equivalent of my most expensive coin.  If it's my most expensive coin I had better love it, but I would not be happy with the piece mentioned by the OP.  It may look better in person but the fields look a bit overdone.

This very inexpensive coin is an example of what I'm most looking for; a gentler cleaning. It's a bit undercleaned, but that's better than overcleaning.

 

I rarely buy toolies (I think I only have one knowingly tooled coin). It's also rare that I buy a smoothie.  This was not described as such but anyone could see that this coin has a clownshow level of smoothing.  Nancy Kerrigan said it best, "Why?!!"  I like the type and it was merely a coin to top up an order; the numismatic equivalent of checkout aisle bubblegum.