Rand Posted August 28 · Supporter Share Posted August 28 Respect to Biddr! Even though the selling numismatic platforms are not expected to take reponsibilty of their content outside what may be requreired by the law, this is a commendable practice. Hopefully other platforms follow Biddr's lead. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax Posted August 28 · Member Share Posted August 28 On 8/24/2024 at 9:46 PM, Hrefn said: I have sent Bertolami an email scolding them for continuing to list a well-known fake as real. I also withdrew all my prebids in their auction after closely examining the other Byzantine gold coins, stating I had lost confidence in their expertise and honesty. I suspect they will not be overly concerned with the loss of one occasional customer. Perhaps they should be more concerned with the loss of a good reputation. The short term gain from selling false coins, of even just lying about provenances, can ultimately destroy a firm, as recent history has shown. In the coin business, a reputation for expertise and honesty are indispensable. No one is infallible (prescinding a certain Roman gentleman speaking ex cathedra) and the occasional fake will slip into an auction. How the firm handles the problem is the critical factor. I have long maintained that customers who point out false coins should be rewarded, perhaps with a $50 voucher. After all, the firm has been saved embarrassment, expense, and a possible hit to its reputation. Also, the eagle-eyed customer has rendered a service by improving on the work of the firm’s cataloguer, a person who one presumes is paid for his or her expertise. Beyond this, the confidence such a policy would engender in the firm’s customers would be of great value. Every coin in their catalogue would be vetted not only by their in-house experts, but by many interested amateurs and professionals who viewed their catalogue (since who wouldn’t want $50 off and the associated bragging rights?) Think of it as the cheapest insurance policy ever, outsourced to the universe of numismatic experts. Even a company with a poor reputation from selling fakes in the past could swiftly have that reputation redeemed after initiating this policy. Rest assured that pointing out fakes just makes you the most annoying customer of an auction house. Instead of a 50 dollar voucher and even if they seemingly thank you for your help, in the background you will probably get lots of curses, free of charge. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted August 28 · Member Share Posted August 28 4 hours ago, CassiusMarcus said: Could you message me or post which lot# the alexander gold coin is that is giving you some doubts? I have some targets at Noonans, one of which consists of an alexander stater, wanted to know if its the same one much appreciated! Think it's this one that Amentia discusses here: https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=53721&start=1305#p613964 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanxi Posted August 28 · Supporter Share Posted August 28 5 hours ago, Kaleun96 said: Think it's this one that Amentia discusses here: Don't forget the next page, where he shows that the obverse is copied from a Salamis Stater. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassiusMarcus Posted August 28 · Member Share Posted August 28 6 hours ago, Kaleun96 said: Think it's this one that Amentia discusses here: https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=53721&start=1305#p613964 Thank you. Side note, bless the people and Amentia in particular on that website, it looks like they do ALOT of great work on fake finding 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted August 28 · Supporter Share Posted August 28 @CassiusMarcus sorry, I missed your request - but yes, that coin. I discussed his view (by view, I mean highly highly likely factual statement!) with the auction and separately I did the same with the seller, so it's very frustrating. However it's obviously a tiny fraction of the Bertolami systemic problem which as I said above was so large-scale it was too much to handle at an individual coin level! I'm delighted with Biddr's reply. Amentia and co are superb, and we had specifically discussed the Bertolami problem but the issue was where to start. Biddr's action is far more effective! I'd also highlight the fact that there are a number of highly able "Amentia"s on lamoneta too. A few years ago I systematically went through their posts and learned a huge amount. One I'd particularly highlight if I may is their mostly polite but widespread demolition of a large number of coins from the (in)famous German ancientsiciliancoins.com collection. Here - https://www.lamoneta.it./topic/145172-collezione-in-anciensiciliancoins Sadly, but not surprisingly, there are ex-Bertolami coins up for re-auction in a few houses at the moment. Some of them are (shock-horror!) "hot". 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted August 28 · Member Share Posted August 28 3 hours ago, Deinomenid said: Sadly, but not surprisingly, there are ex-Bertolami coins up for re-auction in a few houses at the moment Can you please send some links, which ones are hot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted August 28 · Supporter Share Posted August 28 I should have clarified that I was only droning on about western Greeks. I’ve no ability to judge Byzantine coins. One great source for the Bert output of “interesting coins” of the latter is this book which - while frustrating in not clearly showing why coins are off - has lots (lots!) of coins sold in this case supposedly for study but which are reappearing in other guises. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted September 5 · Member Share Posted September 5 Several fakes including the Anastasius Solidus were withdrawn from auction. https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=8311&cid=&pg=7&so=1&search=&s=1 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted September 11 · Member Share Posted September 11 A Justinianus fake with same reverse die https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=2234&lot=84 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted September 11 · Supporter Author Share Posted September 11 Good eye on that, @Nemo! I notice the coin went for only 260 euro. I am not sure if these fakes are real gold, but I remember reading the Lebanese fakes were usually good gold. So it is possible it could be profitably scrapped at 260 euro. May all these counterfeits suffer the same fate! It would be poetic justice if vendors actually lost money selling these counterfeits at auction. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrefn Posted Thursday at 05:44 PM · Supporter Author Share Posted Thursday at 05:44 PM Bertolami’s public relations spokeswoman sent me a long email today, too long to quote. She thanked me for my communications with them. In brief, she maintained a large number of coins had been added to auction 309 before being vetted by the firm’s numismatic experts, but this process is now in progress. She said the firm is committed to eliminating false coins from its catalog, and extends a lifetime guarantee of authenticity backed by an insurance policy with Lloyds. She also invited me to inform them of any other coins which were likely inauthentic. In the interest of fairness, I wanted to include this summary of Bertolami’s side of the story. A portion of my reply: “One of the reasons collectors turn to established auction firms like Bertolami is the presumption that your offerings are screened by experts to eliminate items which are inauthentic, insofar as that is practicable. No collector wants to feel obliged to be on his guard because the firm’s professional numismatists have not done their jobs, or that the firm is offering coins which have not been evaluated by those professionals. At best, conducting business in such a fashion is going to be perceived as indicating a lack of respect for us, the customers. I will take you at your word that the company is committed to honesty and the elimination of fakes from its offerings. I am willing to give Bertolami a second chance, and I may even bid in Auction 309 on your website.” 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted Thursday at 06:48 PM · Supporter Share Posted Thursday at 06:48 PM (edited) 1 hour ago, Hrefn said: a second chance 12th chance? Only half-joking. I'd love to know the reason for the Czech move for their coins dept. The rest still seems to be in Italy... Poor Lloyds of London! Edited Thursday at 06:50 PM by Deinomenid typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balmora90 Posted Saturday at 02:04 AM · Member Share Posted Saturday at 02:04 AM (edited) While we are at this, what do you think about this solidi from Bertolami auction? This is in high grade, but with so many fakes being thrown in between there...one really starts to have suspicions about literally every coin Edited Saturday at 02:05 AM by balmora90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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