Carolus III uncertain of genuineness

[expat]

To set the scene of how  I obtained it. The town I live in Spain celebrates its 250 anniversary in 2026, the same year as America.

We visited a medieval exhibition yesterday at the Castile de Santa Ana, a 17th century castle built on top of a 14th century coastal defence position. This was built by the Berbers and Muslims to give warning against pirates.

Inside the castle was a lady raising money to help with the celebrations. She was relatively aged and was raffling assorted items donated to her which she admitted she knew next to nothing about. The cost was 10 Euros per ticket, and I won this. Unfortunately my knowledge of such issues is best described as minimal.

After a little research I was able to find out that there was a contemporary counterfeit from 1777, which was silver covered zinc alloy, was 39mm and a shade over 23 grams. The 1778 is listed as having overdate varieties.

The coin I won is 38mm and weighs 26.983 grams. The standard weight of these were just over 27 grams, the size 38mm and had a fleur de lys type design around the edge.

I now will turn over any discussion and thoughts to you experts.

 

[Kali]

Here is my 1788. Mexico Mint

[expat]

I forgot to mention that the coin is from Bolivia, PTS mint.

[lordmarcovan]

I’m not qualified to judge, here.  The definition of the date numerals (the way they stand out on the surface) looks a little odd to me, though the style of the numerals themselves looks OK.  

Other than that, I see no obvious red flags that are apparent to me.

Maybe the coin was cleaned/wiped at some point, which is why the date numerals look strange to me?  Don’t know.  That could be all it is- or it could mean nothing at all.  

As mentioned, I’m not qualified to say.

Let’s just say it looks 90-95% convincing to my (semi-uneducated) eye. 😉

[lordmarcovan]

PS- the weight sounds within tolerance?

And for €10, it was not a bad buy at all.

PPS- let me also say that I’m envious of how you live in an area so rich in history.  Here in my area, the oldest surviving historical structures are at the Fort Frederica National Monument: a colonial British town from the 1730s.  That’s what passes for “old” around here.

Edited August 23 by lordmarcovan

[expat]

5 hours ago, lordmarcovan said:

PS- the weight sounds within tolerance?

And for €10, it was not a bad buy at all.

PPS- let me also say that I’m envious of how you live in an area so rich in history.  Here in my area, the oldest surviving historical structures are at the Fort Frederica National Monument: a colonial British town from the 1730s.  That’s what passes for “old” around here.

Yes, this Southern part of Spain had its first settlement of people around 7000 BC. In the local museum are artifacts ranging from then till early medieval times. And of course the early architecture, such as Trajans family villa at Sevilla is just 4 hours away, and a 1st century Roman aquaduct is visible from my pool terrace.

[robinjojo]

On 8/17/2024 at 11:54 AM, expat said:

To set the scene of how  I obtained it. The town I live in Spain celebrates its 250 anniversary in 2026, the same year as America.

We visited a medieval exhibition yesterday at the Castile de Santa Ana, a 17th century castle built on top of a 14th century coastal defence position. This was built by the Berbers and Muslims to give warning against pirates.

Inside the castle was a lady raising money to help with the celebrations. She was relatively aged and was raffling assorted items donated to her which she admitted she knew next to nothing about. The cost was 10 Euros per ticket, and I won this. Unfortunately my knowledge of such issues is best described as minimal.

After a little research I was able to find out that there was a contemporary counterfeit from 1777, which was silver covered zinc alloy, was 39mm and a shade over 23 grams. The 1778 is listed as having overdate varieties.

The coin I won is 38mm and weighs 26.983 grams. The standard weight of these were just over 27 grams, the size 38mm and had a fleur de lys type design around the edge.

I now will turn over any discussion and thoughts to you experts.

 

The edge design is entirely wrong for this period.  The floral pattern was used for the the pillars and waves coinage, but when the portrait coinage commenced the edge design was changed to squares and circles in 1772 (Mexico City Mint), as shown from this image, courtesy of Numista.  So, as observed it is a fake.  Given the composition of the coin, I think it is modern in origin, probably from China.  Eight reales fakes from that country have flooded the market for many years now.  I can't imagine a contemporary fake with an edge design mistake being created.

The obverse denticles on the OP coin are strange.  Compare them to the coin below.

 

Here's a link to an expert on contemporary 8 reales fakes, a wonderful person who I am sure will help, Swamperbob.  Contact him through eBay messages and include your coin's photos.

https://www.ebay.com/usr/swamperbob

 

 

Edited August 23 by robinjojo

[expat]

2 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

The edge design is entirely wrong for this period.  The floral pattern was used for the the pillars and waves coinage, but when the portrait coinage commenced the edge design was changed to squares and circles, as shown from this image, courtesy of Numista.  So, as observed it is a fake.  Given the composition of the coin, I think it is modern in origin, probably from China.  Eight reales fakes from that country have flooded the market for many years now.  I can't imagine a contemporary fake with an edge design mistake being created.

The obverse denticles on the OP coin are strange.  Compare them to the coin below.

 

Here's a link to an expert on contemporary 8 reales fakes, a wonderful person who I am sure will help, Swamperbob.  Contact him through eBay messages and include your coin's photos.

https://www.ebay.com/usr/swamperbob

 

 

Thanks for confirming my doubts. At least my 10 Euros is going toward a worthy cause. It is my second fake to gain entrance to my "black tray".

[robinjojo]

There's also a classic reference for contemporary counterfeit 8 reales.  It is John Riddell's "A of the Silver Dollars: Good and Bad", published in 1845.  Reprints are available online.  Here are copies available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Monograph-Silver-Dollar-Good-Bad/dp/1166452441

This is a handy reference to have for those collectors interested in contemporary fakes or those who have questions about the authenticity of a coin in their collection or contemplating for purchase.

I found this coin in a bottom drawer about a month ago.  I completely forgot about it.  Obviously it is a fake made from highly debased metal.  It is supposed to be a Mexico Republic 8 reales, 1831, from the Durango Mint.  Approximately .150 fine according to Riddell.  That might be on the high side in my view.

Mexico, Durango, contemporary fake 8 reales, 1831 RM.

 25.84 grams

I sent photos of the coin to Bob Gurney (Swamperbob) a couple of weeks ago, and received this response.  Clearly he is a dedicated collector!

"Your coin is listed in Riddell's book - it is a mule of the two different Riddell varieties for 1831 Durango. It uses a die that closely resembles the cap die of the Riddell # 363 and the Eagle die of the Riddell # 364.  Like many other Riddell varieties, it is far from alone.  Some Riddell types have Family groups of 6 or seven coins all identified by the use of common punches.  I have no doubt at all of the relationship.

I have been working for some time developing a numbering system for all Riddell dies including all of the dies that appear in multiple Riddell numbered coins as well as coins related by the individual punches used.  About three weeks ago, I started adding my own collection to the numbering system.  I have only gotten to 1828. It is very slow going.

In my system it is tentatively a 1831 Do - 1a-B1.  The indication 1a refers to the cap die indicating a close relationship to the R-363 cap and the B1 is closely related to the R 364.  I took enough time with your coin to recognize that what you have is a pair of dies that warrant their own numbers with notes to indicate that the punches used are matching.  The spacing of rays varies as does their length in relation to their surroundings. Also, the precise orientation and spacing of alpha-numerics does differ. On the eagle the cactus spines are in different positions and the #2 cactus pad has a full join to the main branch which is an even closer die match to the 3-C die pair of the 1833 Do coin Riddell # 369. Not surprising because the large punches used in 1831 were not complete and needed finishing details after they were set into the working die.  So, after some added thought I would call it the 1831 Do -3-C and show relation to R-360, R-361, R-363, R-364 and R-369. That is a minimal number of Riddell relatives.  As I proceed the numbers of family relations only increases. 

Just for fun what follows is my numbering for 1824 Mo which consists of 7 numbered examples in Riddelkl. There are 4 Hookneck types and three facing eagles.  To that I added the 7 lettered counterfeit examples that appeared in O'Harrow and Hubbard "Hooknecks - Supplement".  Finally, I added my own 11 examples.  It took over a week and a half just to do this series.  The H refers to Hookneck types and the F to facing eagle types. As you can see not many examples are duplicated.  In fact one pair of "duplicate" die pairs uses two entirely different edge designs.  HoH's 6th and 7th coins match but one has a colonial circle and rectangle edge while the other has an engrailed edge.  If I added the alloy used, I doubt I would have two identical copies. 

When I did my Portrait 8R book I discovered that precise die matches were limited to about 5% of the coins I encountered. Since that time, I have added almost 200 new examples and there are few more duplicates than originally. 

If you ever decide to sell this one, I would love to buy it.  Let me know if you have others I would like to add as many collections to mine as possible.

1824 Mo 1-H-A1824 Mo 2-H-B1824 Mo 3-H-C1824 Mo 4-H-D1824 Mo 1-F-A1824 Mo 2-F-B1824 Mo 1-F-A1824 Mo 5-H-E1824 Mo 6-H-F1824 Mo 7-H-F1824 Mo 8-H-G1824 Mo 2-H-B1824 Mo 9-H-H1824 Mo 10-H-H1824 Mo 6-H-F1824 Mo 2-H-B1824 Mo 2-H-B1824 Mo 11-H-B1824 Mo 6-H-F1824 Mo 5-H-E1824 Mo 2-H-B1824 Mo 12-H-I1824 Mo 2a-F-B11824 Mo 3-F-C1824 Mo 1-F-A"
Sincerely,

Bob Gurney

[MrMonkeySwag96]

I happen to own coins of Carolus III, his son, and grandson.

My only coin of king Carolus III is this 1783 1/2 Reale from the famous El Cazedor shipwreck:

Here is my gold Escudo of Carolus III’s son, Carolus IV: 

 

I also have a 1816 8 Reales of king Ferdinand VII, the grandson of Carolus III:

Edited August 23 by MrMonkeySwag96