Robi Posted August 20 · Member Share Posted August 20 Hi! I received yesterday an interesting coin. I looked in the auction archives - but I can't find any. It seems to be very rare. What do you think - what rarity level could be given? Antiochos VII and Kleopatra Thea, SC 2266. If there are no auction records - then the rarity would be R3, but numerically more R2 (2 museum pieces in the online Seleucid catalog, 1 in the Hoover catalog and my coin - so a total of 4). But maybe I missed something - has anyone come across such a coin at an auction? Thank You, Robert Kharitonov Rarity scale of Seleucid bronze coins according to Arthur Houghton and David Hendin: S Scarce. Within a bracket of approximately 30-100. Many are in collections. These appear in many collections and catalogs but are not common in the trade. A specific S is likely to appear on the market once every few months. R1 Rare. Within a range of 10-30 examples R1 coins appear in a smaller number of collections and catalogs. R1 coins will be available on the market infrequently, perhaps several times a year. R2 Very Rare. Within a range of more than 2, generally less than 10 extant examples R2 coins are very limited in number, and are generally not available on the market. One or more may appear over the course of several years. R3 Extremely rare. One or two examples only are believed to be extant. R3 coins are generally found in isolated examples in collections and excavations. A specific R3 is not likely to appear on the market for many years, if at all. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor LONGINUS Posted August 20 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 20 (edited) Interesting coin, Robi, It may not be of Seleucid origin. It’s appears to be Roman Provincial Phoenician. I found this on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/322482919792 That led me to: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=MARATHOS+in+PHOENICIA+Zeus+Cornucopia+&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1¤cy=usd&order=1 Edited August 20 by LONGINUS 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robi Posted August 20 · Member Author Share Posted August 20 47 minutes ago, LONGINUS said: Interesting coin, Robi, It may not be of Seleucid origin. It’s appears to be Roman Provincial Phoenician. I found this on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/322482919792 That led me to: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=MARATHOS+in+PHOENICIA+Zeus+Cornucopia+&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1¤cy=usd&order=1 Thank You for your comment. Yes coin from Marathos is similar, but my is Seleucid 😉: https://numismatics.org/sco/id/sc.1.2266 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robi Posted August 21 · Member Author Share Posted August 21 Has anyone seen anything, does anyone know anything? 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Theodosius Posted August 21 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 21 There is a tendency for bronze coins to not be individually listed in auctions due to their relatively lower value. So there may be more examples of this coin floating around, but they just haven't been photographed in auctions much. Can decipher the legend on your coin? That would probably help a lot in confirming its identity. I have quite a few Selucid bronze coins with a very similar patina to yours, not sure that means anything. 😊 John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robi Posted August 21 · Member Author Share Posted August 21 @Theodosius, thank You for your comment - yes it is posible, that this coin appear in some lot, but we dont know this 🙂 Its a first time I can't find any action of seleucid bronze coin 🤔 This is Antiochos VIII and Kleopatra Thea, SC 2266, maybe a new subtype with star between cornucopia and fillet. Awers: Laureate head of Zeus right Rewers: BAΣΙΛIΣΣHΣ KΛEOΠATPAΣ KAI BAΣΙΛΕΩΣ ANTIOXOY Filleted double cornucopiae oriented to right. Monogram and symbol - star. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Theodosius Posted August 22 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 22 It's a great find for sure! John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robi Posted August 22 · Member Author Share Posted August 22 6 hours ago, Theodosius said: It's a great find for sure! John Thank You! Yeh i am glad to have this in my collection. Robert 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaximander Posted August 22 · Member Share Posted August 22 (edited) The SCO entry for SC 2266.2 is here (as @Robi already knows). This bronze is described there as denomination C of Antiochos VIII from an uncertain mint with a diameter of 16-17mm and a weight of 4.34-4.7 gm. Hoover's HGC vol. 9 has this coin listed as Kleopatra Thea and Antiochos VIII #1193. The coin is depicted, but the obverse is obviously misdescribed as jugate busts when it is indeed the head of Zeus, right. The reverse is described as filleted double cornucopia, with symbols and monograms left. Still an uncertain mint, but probably Damascus. SC 2266. Scarcity is shown as R2, using the Houghton scale, which for bronze means: Very Rare. Within a range of more than two and generally less than 10 examples. To @Theodosius's point, Houghton's rarity definition goes on to say that Seleucid bronze coins have until recently been under-collected and under-represented in most collections and remain substantially under-published. My bronze of Molon is a case in point. Is it still R3? "only one or two examples." Well there are three on SCO, CNG sold one in January 2024, and I have another, so no. Edited August 23 by Anaximander 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robi Posted August 22 · Member Author Share Posted August 22 (edited) ThanknYou @Anaximander for valuable commentary. Thanks to a friend's catalog: Seleucid Coins: A Comprehensive Catalog by Arthur Houghton, Catharine Lorber, and Oliver Hoover, and my own mini research, these are the conclusions... The coin appears in the following collections/catalogs: A Comprehensive Catalog by Arthur Houghton = coin from Hoovers HCG?, T.Miller collection (2 copies) Hunterian collection plate LXIX, 17 (also mentions the second subtype with a palm branch). Babelon 1367 from coll. Bibliothèque nationale de France. National Numismatic Collection, De Nederlandsche Bank, Amsterdam. SNG Spaer 2470. And my copy. So 9-10 copies so far (there are probably more - but we don't know for sure) This would be consistent with the rarity level of R2. I agree that some rarity ratings are outdated (this has been especially changing in recent years, when a coin once assigned a rarity rating of R2 by HCG has had about 30 auction listings in the last 4 years). But it seems that for now rarity level of SC 2266 has survived and new copies are not revealed (at least at auctions) Post scriptum: @LONGINUS, Babelon also associated this type of coin with Marathos coins (note attached). Edited August 23 by Robi new thought 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodotus Posted August 23 · Member Share Posted August 23 After a cursory look through some of my Seleucid Bronzes, I was unable to find one of this particular type, however, there are still many that I've yet to fully attribute/catalog. I can look more thoroughly when I have the time. I did locate an example of the Marathos type that arrived (along with a few other Phoenician types) in a large lot of AE Seleucids that I acquired a while back. (Per Seleucids) I've noticed that the Cornucopiae reverse is most common on Alexander II(Zabinas) varieties, as well as couple of Antiochos VIII(Grypus) types. Yet, most portray the ruler on the obverse. My first instinct was that the Marathos type and your Antiochus VIII type may be related, and the reference that you've provided appears to also theorize that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaximander Posted August 23 · Member Share Posted August 23 11 hours ago, Robi said: The coin appears in the following collections/catalogs: A Comprehensive Catalog by Arthur Houghton = coin from Hoovers HCG?... Correct! SC 2266.1a = HGC 9 # 1193. They are one and the same. The plate coin comes from Hunter 8. = SCO also lists, in its Concordance to SNG Spaer, SC 2266.1b = Spaer 2470. The coin does not appear in Houghton's ACNAC collection, volume 4, part I or II. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robi Posted August 24 · Member Author Share Posted August 24 Thank You, @Anaximander! Its a good work 🙂 Well, now everything is clear with this coin. Greetings, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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