Jupiter or emperor on eagle?

[Lecen]

Hi, everyone. First timer here. I’m new collecting ancient Roman coins and I have a question:

I’ve been reading about Licinius I’s coins and there is a type in which there’s a figure holding a bolt while riding an eagle. Some coins supposedly depict Jupiter while others show Licinius, although I can’t see any artistic difference in the figures. According to descriptive websites, the difference seems to be that the eagle spreads both wings when the figure is Jupiter, and the left wing is down when is Licinius. But then going through merchants’ websites, they either claim is Licinius or Jupiter regardless of the eagle’s wings.

How to differentiate when it’s Jupiter or Licinius mounting an eagle in that type of coin?  I appreciate your attention in this matter.

Edited August 21 by Lecen
Added image for clarification

[CPK]

Welcome to the Forum and the hobby! Good to have you here. 🙂

I'm not equipped to answer your question but I'm sure there are others here who can (thinking of @Victor_Clark and others.)

 

[Al Kowsky]

The reverse inscription identifies him a Jupiter.

[DonnaML]

I have not looked in any catalogs. But I would assume that a figure holding a thunderbolt as on all these coins would always represent Jupiter. I can't think off the top of my head of an emperor being depicted holding a thunderbolt.

[Lecen]

2 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

The reverse inscription identifies him a Jupiter.

Both the ones who supposedly depict Licinius or Jupiter have “IOVI CONSERV-ATORI AVG” in the reverse and that’s it. Could you clarify how Jupiter is exactly identified?

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

Agree with the above commentary. Jupiter is depicted and welcome to the forum.

 

Here is Zeus with thunderbolt on a tet of Alexandria struck by Commodus

Edited August 22 by Ancient Coin Hunter

[Hrefn]

Nice coins, by the way.

[Victor_Clark]

The confusion stems from the fact that RIC VI and RIC VII give different descriptions; which has nothing to do with the wings of the eagle. In RIC VI, the figure is Jupiter and in RIC VII the figure is the Emperor. RIC VII was published in 1966 and a year later RIC VI came out. RIC VI deals with the billon issues though; while RIC VII is the silvered bronze issues. I agree with RIC VI that the figure is always Jupiter, regardless of the coin type.

 

 

 if you use the description from RIC VII, you can just put it in parenthesis that it is actually Jupiter

 

Licinius I
A.D. 319
17x18mm    3.1gm
IMP LICI-NIVS AVG; laureate, draped, cuirassed, mappa in raised right hand, sceptre across left shoulder.
IOVI CONSERVATORI AVG; eagle standing on wave line, left wing pointing downward, carrying Emperor (actually Jupiter), standing left, thunderbolt in right hand, sceptre across left shoulder.
In ex. STR
RIC VII Trier 211

 

 

 

Licinius I
A.D. 319
17mm   2.8gm
IMP LICINIVS AVG; Laureate and cuirassed bust right.
IOVI CONSERVATORI AVG; Emperor (actually Jupiter) borne by eagle standing right, left wing pointing downward, looking back; Emperor holds scepter in left hand and thunderbolt in right.
In ex. TARL
RIC VII Arles 197

 

[Lecen]

1 hour ago, Victor_Clark said:

The confusion stems from the fact that RIC VI and RIC VII give different descriptions; which has nothing to do with the wings of the eagle. In RIC VI, the figure is Jupiter and in RIC VII the figure is the Emperor. RIC VII was published in 1966 and a year later RIC VI came out. RIC VI deals with the billon issues though; while RIC VII is the silvered bronze issues. I agree with RIC VI that the figure is always Jupiter, regardless of the coin type.

 

 

 if you use the description from RIC VII, you can just put it in parenthesis that it is actually Jupiter

 

Licinius I
A.D. 319
17x18mm    3.1gm
IMP LICI-NIVS AVG; laureate, draped, cuirassed, mappa in raised right hand, sceptre across left shoulder.
IOVI CONSERVATORI AVG; eagle standing on wave line, left wing pointing downward, carrying Emperor (actually Jupiter), standing left, thunderbolt in right hand, sceptre across left shoulder.
In ex. STR
RIC VII Trier 211

 

 

 

Licinius I
A.D. 319
17mm   2.8gm
IMP LICINIVS AVG; Laureate and cuirassed bust right.
IOVI CONSERVATORI AVG; Emperor (actually Jupiter) borne by eagle standing right, left wing pointing downward, looking back; Emperor holds scepter in left hand and thunderbolt in right.
In ex. TARL
RIC VII Arles 197

 

So all the coins actually represent Jupiter (Zeus). It makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that. What is RIC? It’s a book? Could you give me title, please?

[rasiel]

It's always Jupiter. Mortals did not have the power to summon lightning.

Rasiel

[Victor_Clark]

On 8/22/2024 at 11:37 AM, Lecen said:

So all the coins actually represent Jupiter (Zeus). It makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that. What is RIC? It’s a book? Could you give me title, please?

RIC is Roman Imperial Coinage

 

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Roman Imperial Coinage

 

Mattingly H. & E. Sydenham, et al. The Roman Imperial Coinage. (London, 1926 - 2020).

RIC I: Sutherland, C. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. I, From 39 BC to AD 69. (London, 1984).
RIC II.1: Carradice, I. & T. Buttrey. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. II, Part 1: From AD 69 to 96. (London, 2007).
RIC II: Mattingly H. & E. Sydenham. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. II: Vespasian to Hadrian. (London, 1926).
RIC III: Mattingly, H. & E. Sydenham. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. III, Antoninus Pius to Commodus. (London, 1930).
RIC IV: Mattingly, H., E. Sydenham & C. Sutherland. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. IV, From Pertinax to Uranius Antoninus. (London, 1986).
RIC V.1: Mattingly, H., E. Sydenham & P. Webb. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. V, Part I, Valerian to Florian. (London, 1927).
RIC V.2: Mattingly, H., E. Sydenham & P. Webb. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. V, Part II, Probus to Amandus. (London, 1933).
MER-RIC: Monnaies de l'Empire Romain - Roman Imperial Coinage, AD 268 - 276.
RIC VI: Sutherland, R. & C. Carson. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. VI, From Diocletian's reform to the death of Maximinus. (London, 1967).
RIC VII: Bruun, P. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. VII, Constantine and Licinius A.D. 313 - 337. (London, 1966).
RIC VIII: Carson, R., H. Sutherland & J. Kent. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. VIII, The Family of Constantine I, A.D. 337 - 364. (London, 1981).
RIC IX: Pearce, J. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. IX, Valentinian I - Theodosius I. (London 1933).
RIC X: Kent, J. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. X, The Divided Empire and the Fall of the Western Parts, AD 395 - 491. (London, 1994).

 

[Lecen]

5 hours ago, Victor_Clark said:

RIC is Roman Imperial Coinage

 

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Roman Imperial Coinage

 

Mattingly H. & E. Sydenham, et al. The Roman Imperial Coinage. (London, 1926 - 2020).

RIC I: Sutherland, C. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. I, From 39 BC to AD 69. (London, 1984).
RIC II.1: Carradice, I. & T. Buttrey. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. II, Part 1: From AD 69 to 96. (London, 2007).
RIC II: Mattingly H. & E. Sydenham. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. II: Vespasian to Hadrian. (London, 1926).
RIC III: Mattingly, H. & E. Sydenham. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. III, Antoninus Pius to Commodus. (London, 1930).
RIC IV: Mattingly, H., E. Sydenham & C. Sutherland. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. IV, From Pertinax to Uranius Antoninus. (London, 1986).
RIC V.1: Mattingly, H., E. Sydenham & P. Webb. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. V, Part I, Valerian to Florian. (London, 1927).
RIC V.2: Mattingly, H., E. Sydenham & P. Webb. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. V, Part II, Probus to Amandus. (London, 1933).
MER-RIC: Monnaies de l'Empire Romain - Roman Imperial Coinage, AD 268 - 276.
RIC VI: Sutherland, R. & C. Carson. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. VI, From Diocletian's reform to the death of Maximinus. (London, 1967).
RIC VII: Bruun, P. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. VII, Constantine and Licinius A.D. 313 - 337. (London, 1966).
RIC VIII: Carson, R., H. Sutherland & J. Kent. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. VIII, The Family of Constantine I, A.D. 337 - 364. (London, 1981).
RIC IX: Pearce, J. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. IX, Valentinian I - Theodosius I. (London 1933).
RIC X: Kent, J. The Roman Imperial Coinage, Vol. X, The Divided Empire and the Fall of the Western Parts, AD 395 - 491. (London, 1994).

 

I really appreciate this. Clear and objective answer, without guess work. Thanks!