The Definitive Visual Guide to Athenian Owl Tetradrachms - Part 1 (I need your help!)

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

Ok, my mega-project of making a huge visual guide of Athenian owls from the Wappenmünzen to the New Style has begun!  

This is the first, provisional part. Sorry for the watermarks, but I had my stuff stolen before! I thank all of you for your help in my last thread, especially @Brennos with his study that helped me immensely for Seltman Groups I had no news about except for their name!

Now I need your help: PLEASE HELP ME FIND MISTAKES OR ADD SOMETHING! 

I feel like this first part could use a lot of improvements: let me know if you spot any misattributed coins, if some info about the groups are missing or plain wrong, if you have some design improvements, anything would be great, please!

Knowledge should be shared, and the fact that coin classifications are behind a paywall hurts the hobby and the research immensely, so I'm trying to make knowledge free for everyone, but mostly clear and easily accessible for people like us by doing these infographics.

(We should launch a hashtag , ha! #freeancientcoinknowledge or something 🙂 )

By the way, this picture is relatively small, the original file size I'm working with is 6,000 x 10,000 pixels!

Let me know what you think, and please, please, please, add your feedback!

A.C.

[Lelouch]

Wow! Very well formatted and the differences are really clear. Did you make all those small diagrams of the noses and the like

[Romismatist]

Great resource! Looking forward to the next installment! Please continue to share with us as you progress!

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

@Lelouch yes, I did everything from scratch, drawings included (to highlight in red the main features of each group). Btw, nice username 😉

@Romismatist thanks, I will! I’m just waiting for feedback on this before moving on to the Starr groups etc…

[AETHER]

Wonderful

[Curtisimo]

Absolutely fantastic. Please keep up the amazing work.

7 hours ago, AncientCoinnoisseur said:

Sorry for the watermarks, but I had my stuff stolen before!

I’m not sure if it is just me but I do find the watermarks a bit visually distracting. If your goal is to disseminate this graphic freely and openly then I guess I am confused about what context you are worried about it being stolen?

I do agree with you about taking knowledge out from behind paywalls and also language barriers and making it accessible and easy to understand. I have put together similar, though far less ambitious, graphics in the past such as the below. 

Edited September 12 by Curtisimo

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

1 minute ago, Curtisimo said:

Absolutely fantastic. Please keep up the amazing work.

I’m not sure if it is just me but I do find the watermarks a bit visually distracting. If your goal is to disseminate this graphic freely and openly then I guess I am confused about what context you are worried about it being stolen?

I do agree with you about taking knowledge out from behind paywalls and also language barriers and making it accessible and easy to understand. I have put together similar, though far less ambitious, graphics in the past such as the below. 

Wow, nicely formatted! I know it’s distracting, but this is still a provisional version which I posted just for feedback (which I still haven’t received, probably because there aren’t many experts on Seltman groups here 🙂 ), so I will post the complete, ‘unwatermarked’ version once I am satisfied with the result and I will have put my name in different, non-invasive places, but it was 1:00 a.m. yesterday when I posted this, so I just went with the easier ‘cover everything with my name and make it transparent’ 😄 

[Curtisimo]

3 minutes ago, AncientCoinnoisseur said:

Wow, nicely formatted! I know it’s distracting, but this is still a provisional version which I posted just for feedback (which I still haven’t received, probably because there aren’t many experts on Seltman groups here 🙂 ), so I will post the complete, ‘unwatermarked’ version once I am satisfied with the result and I will have put my name in different, non-invasive places, but it was 1:00 a.m. yesterday when I posted this, so I just went with the easier ‘cover everything with my name and make it transparent’ 😄 

Nice! I will love to have the set in my digital library once you’ve finished the project. These will be great references.

I am sure more specialists will be along eventually to give more focused feedback. As you say, the Seltman reference is hard to come by so few of us have the ability to assist.

[robinjojo]

Wow!  This is a very interesting stylistic analysis of the archaic tetradrachms based on the Seltman groups.  Do you have a copy of his reference?  It has been reprinted.

Seltman was a pioneer in creating a reference for these coins based on historical events and artistic styles (Doric and Ionic) over the period of 525 to 480 BC.  The dating of these coins is not definitive by any means.  The consensus is that the archaic owls ended in 480/79 BC following the end of the second war with Persia and the reconstruction of Athens.  As far as the starting point for the owls, some researchers think the initial period was around 514 BC, following the assassination of the tyrant Hipparchus.

I think your stylistic approach is accurate overall.  Generally I find the archaic style owl on the reverse rather stiff, with some minor variations.  The obverses show much more variation over the groups.  The drift that I got reading Seltman is that the overall style peaked with Group L.  He held owls produced by the "Civic mint" (group H) in high esteem, while those produced by the "Paeonian mint" (group E) in low esteem, and the coins illustrated for this mint in his reference are indeed very crude.  By the time that groups F and E were produced the pressures to prepare for the Persian invasion created a significant decline in the quality of the owls, both in terms of flans, dies and strikes.

The first group of archaic owls, Group H, all seem to have plain solid crests compared to the series of inverted Vs and dots on the later issues.

Here's my group H owl, with a plain crest and the other characteristics that are noted  in the OP.  Seltman thought that these early owls were used mainly as awards to victors in games held in this period.

Attica, Athens, archaic owl, Seltman Group H.  After 514 BC.

17.46 grams

 

 

My impression now is that consensus among some authorities is that the Paeonian mint owls were actually produced in Athens in the immediate year of the Persian invasion and extended up to the fall of Athens to the Persians in September 480 BC.  

But dating these cons, as I mentioned, is still generally up in the air.  I think your stylistic approach is fantastic!

I do have one archaic owl with pellets on the bowl of Athena's helmet.  It is an anomalous example that does not exactly fit into Group F in that the reverse owl is definitely cruder  and facing the wrong way, an engraving error I think.  I'm still not sure where this coin falls in the Setlman groups.  My guess is that it was produced around 480 BC.

 

Edited September 12 by robinjojo

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

32 minutes ago, Curtisimo said:

Nice! I will love to have the set in my digital library once you’ve finished the project. These will be great references.

I am sure more specialists will be along eventually to give more focused feedback. As you say, the Seltman reference is hard to come by so few of us have the ability to assist.

Thanks! Yes, I will cover the Starr groups next and the pi-styles. I’m not sure I will do something similar for the new style tets, since I only know the different countermarks for dating, but I am not aware of any subgroups nor about distinctive features. I might have to resort to @NewStyleKing and his help if I decide to make a part 3 dedicated to the new style 🙂 

I also plan to do a flowchart where an inexperienced person can be guided step-by step to the exact coin type they have! 

23 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

Wow!  This is a very interesting stylistic analysis of the archaic tetradrachms based on the Seltman groups.  Do you have a copy of his reference?  It has been reprinted.

Seltman was a pioneer in creating a reference for these coins based on historical events and artistic styles (Doric and Ionic) over the period of 525 to 480 BC.  The dating of these coins is not definitive by any means.  The consensus is that the archaic owls ended in 480/79 BC following the end of the second war with Persia and the reconstruction of Athens.  As far as the starting point for the owls, some researchers think the initial period was around 514 BC, following the assassination of the tyrant Hipparchus.

I think your stylistic approach is accurate overall.  Generally I find the archaic style owl on the reverse rather stiff, with some minor variations.  The obverses show much more variation over the groups.  The drift that I got reading Seltman is that the overall style peaked with Group L.  He held owls produced by the "Civic mint" in high esteem, while those produced by the "Paeonian mint" in low esteem, and the coins illustrated for this mint in his reference are indeed very crude.  By the time that groups F and E were produced the pressures to prepare for the Persian invasion created a significant decline in the quality of the owls, both in terms of flans, dies and strikes.

My impression now is that consensus among some authorities is that the Paeonian mint owls were actually produced in Athens in the immediate year of the Persian invasion and extended up to the fall of Athens to the Persians in September 480 BC.  

But dating these cons, as I mentioned, is still generally up in the air.  I think your stylistic approach is fantastic!

I do have one archaic owl with pellets on the bowl of Athena's helmet.  It is an anomalous example that does not exactly fit into Group F in that the reverse owl is definitely cruder  and facing the wrong way, an engraving error I think.  I'm still not sure where this coin falls in the Setlman groups.  My guess is that it was produced around 480 BC.

 

Thank you for your additional info! No, unfortunately I don’t have the reference, hence why I’m asking for help, I got all my info either online or from Kraay, so I might have made some mistakes that only someone with the reference could spot! Plates would also be great, just to use Seltman’s original coins (so they cannot be mistyped, haha). Nice coin you have there! As for the group, there is always some kind of overlap, and the groups are not set in stone, so I’d say that yours has an obverse that is closely related to Group F, but the owl features are more ‘barbaric’. The fact that the owl is left-facing is puzzling to say the least! Very interesting coin!

[robinjojo]

I was unable to locate of copy of the Seltman reference for sale online, but it is available occasionally, almost always the 1974 reprint. 

There is a copy that is available through Google Books, online.  I am not terribly impressed with the sample pages available for viewing; perhaps the quality is better in the full version.

 https://books.google.com/books/about/Athens_Its_History_and_Coinage_Before_th.html?id=Uas8AAAAIAAJ

 

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

@robinjojo thanks for the link! I know it’s just a preview, but it’s better than nothing! Still, I am firmly convinced that any classification work should be available for free for research purposes. If not the book, at least a simplified guide like mine. What’s the point of classifying coins if only 10 people on the planet (and maybe auction houses) know how to use it? It’s unfair.

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

1 hour ago, robinjojo said:

Wow!  This is a very interesting stylistic analysis of the archaic tetradrachms based on the Seltman groups.  Do you have a copy of his reference?  It has been reprinted.

Seltman was a pioneer in creating a reference for these coins based on historical events and artistic styles (Doric and Ionic) over the period of 525 to 480 BC.  The dating of these coins is not definitive by any means.  The consensus is that the archaic owls ended in 480/79 BC following the end of the second war with Persia and the reconstruction of Athens.  As far as the starting point for the owls, some researchers think the initial period was around 514 BC, following the assassination of the tyrant Hipparchus.

I think your stylistic approach is accurate overall.  Generally I find the archaic style owl on the reverse rather stiff, with some minor variations.  The obverses show much more variation over the groups.  The drift that I got reading Seltman is that the overall style peaked with Group L.  He held owls produced by the "Civic mint" (group H) in high esteem, while those produced by the "Paeonian mint" (group E) in low esteem, and the coins illustrated for this mint in his reference are indeed very crude.  By the time that groups F and E were produced the pressures to prepare for the Persian invasion created a significant decline in the quality of the owls, both in terms of flans, dies and strikes.

The first group of archaic owls, Group H, all seem to have plain solid crests compared to the series of inverted Vs and dots on the later issues.

Here's my group H owl, with a plain crest and the other characteristics that are noted  in the OP.  Seltman thought that these early owls were used mainly as awards to victors in games held in this period.

Attica, Athens, archaic owl, Seltman Group H.  After 514 BC.

17.46 grams

 

 

My impression now is that consensus among some authorities is that the Paeonian mint owls were actually produced in Athens in the immediate year of the Persian invasion and extended up to the fall of Athens to the Persians in September 480 BC.  

But dating these cons, as I mentioned, is still generally up in the air.  I think your stylistic approach is fantastic!

I do have one archaic owl with pellets on the bowl of Athena's helmet.  It is an anomalous example that does not exactly fit into Group F in that the reverse owl is definitely cruder  and facing the wrong way, an engraving error I think.  I'm still not sure where this coin falls in the Setlman groups.  My guess is that it was produced around 480 BC.

 

Since you have added some info: I also noticed the increasing decorations on the helmet / crest, although I didn’t include it since I don’t know if it’s a characteristic with a definite cut-off point. i.e. the H group is either solid or with some dots / lines; the L seems to have small dots and lines, but starting with M we can already see that distinctive pattern emerge and getting bigger. I wouldn’t know how to classify that though, I’ll think about it. Let me know if you find out about a specific group that Seltman associates with that pattern 🙂

Edited September 12 by AncientCoinnoisseur

[Spargrodan]

9 hours ago, AncientCoinnoisseur said:

Ok, my mega-project of making a huge visual guide of Athenian owls from the Wappenmünzen to the New Style has begun!  

This is the first, provisional part. Sorry for the watermarks, but I had my stuff stolen before! I thank all of you for your help in my last thread, especially @Brennos with his study that helped me immensely for Seltman Groups I had no news about except for their name!

Now I need your help: PLEASE HELP ME FIND MISTAKES OR ADD SOMETHING! 

I feel like this first part could use a lot of improvements: let me know if you spot any misattributed coins, if some info about the groups are missing or plain wrong, if you have some design improvements, anything would be great, please!

Knowledge should be shared, and the fact that coin classifications are behind a paywall hurts the hobby and the research immensely, so I'm trying to make knowledge free for everyone, but mostly clear and easily accessible for people like us by doing these infographics.

(We should launch a hashtag , ha! #freeancientcoinknowledge or something 🙂 )

By the way, this picture is relatively small, the original file size I'm working with is 6,000 x 10,000 pixels!

Let me know what you think, and please, please, please, add your feedback!

A.C.

Fantastic work! Great presentation and graphics! I enjoy sharing free knowledge and creating graphics, and I look forward to contributing to our community in the future as well. Regarding the watermark, I think it depends on how you intend to use the graphics. If you're offering them publicly for free, there's always the risk of them being reused or even stolen. But ultimately, it’s important to do what makes you feel most comfortable. Anyhow awesome work and thanks for sharing!

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

@Spargrodan Thanks! I’ll think about it, maybe create a personal blog or something where I can post all my infographics and so on, or make a YouTube channel, who knows?

[Deinomenid]

9 hours ago, robinjojo said:

I was unable to locate of copy of the Seltman reference for sale online, but it is available occasionally, almost always the 1974 reprint

@robinjojo and @AncientCoinnoisseur I have a 1924 original if you need any specific plates etc.

[Deinomenid]

18 hours ago, AncientCoinnoisseur said:

OR ADD SOMETHING! 

Thank you very much for this.  Will you be adding dates to the groups or is it too controversial still? If the latter would  it be worth adding the argued range - somewhat akin to the seemingly 957 different grouping systems for Aegina!

[robinjojo]

1 hour ago, Deinomenid said:

@robinjojo and @AncientCoinnoisseur I have a 1924 original if you need any specific plates etc.

Thanks!  I actually have a copy of the 1974 reprint.  I'm also happy to share the plates, but the quality of the photos, dating to 1924 or earlier are not great, being typically fuzzy.  I can try photographing with my digital camera and see how a photo or two comes out.

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

Thanks @Deinomenid and @robinjojo Another user just helped me locate a version on Archive, I guess it’s the same. In case the plates are not visible enough I might ask for help 🙂 Now I’m reading the whole book to see if I missed anything! And yes, I plan on adding dates, at least ranges 🙂

[robinjojo]

Here are the Seltman plates.  I figured why do just a couple?  I apologize for the poor quality. I tried to adjust on Photoshop for contrast and lighting. At least they will give you a general impression of his groupings stylistically. Since the plates are towards the back of the book, there is some distortion on some pages.  I didn't want to stress the book's spine.  

 

Edited Thursday at 07:25 PM by robinjojo

[AncientCoinnoisseur]

30 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

Here are the Seltman plates.  I figured why do just a couple?  I apologize for the poor quality. I tried to adjust on Photoshop for contrast and lighting. At least they will give you a general impression of his groupings stylistically. Since the plates are towards the back of the book, there is some distortion on some pages.  I didn't want to stress the book's spine.  

 

Thank you so much, I appreciate it!! 🙂 

[Brennos]

Congratulations, you've done a very great job !
Gil Davis is working on a new corpus of archaic coins from Athens.