Another change to my photography setup

[maridvnvm]

I have made another change to my photography setup and would like some feedback on what you see. I have changed from a Tripod and Lamp with incandescent daylight bulb to a copy stand with integrated LED lamps on adjustable arms. I have experimented quite a bit thus far and have settled on this as my current setup. I am only using one of the two LED lamps, the one on the right in the image.

I have a small lazy Susan covered with black felt, into which I have mounted dowels to allow me to adjust the height of the coins. Each dowel has a small blob of plasticine on it to allow me to cushion the coin.

 

The images posted here are reduced to 33% of the original size and combined.

The first three results are as follows:-

A Probus Ant. from Rome, which is very dark brown, almost black in tone.

Obv:– IMP C M AVR PROBVS P F AVG, Radiate, cuirassed bust right
Rev:– ADVENTVS PROBI AVG, Emperor riding left, right hand raised, left holding sceptre; at foot, captive
Minted in Rome (RS in exe) Emission 2 Officina 6. A.D. 277
Reference(s) – RIC 160 Bust Type F

4.30g. 24.55 mm. 180 degrees

A silver denarius of Septimius Severus

Septimius Severus denarius - RIC 495

Obv:– L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG P M IMP XI, laureate head right
Rev:– PAR AR AD TR P VI COS II P P, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm
Minted in Laodicea ad Mare, A.D. 198
References:– BMCRE 625. RIC 495, RSC 361

Ex Spink Auction 18055, Lot 448. Ex. Michael Kelly Collection

3.97 gms, 19.07 mm. 0 degrees

The third is a Probus, billon, tetradrachm

Obv:– A K M AVP PR-OBOC CEB, Laureate, cuirassed bust right
Rev:– None, Eagle standing left, head right, with wreath in beak
Minted in Alexandria, Egypt. Year 5. (L in left field, E in right field). A.D. 279-280
Milne 4614. Emmett 3984(5) R1. Curtis 1858. BMC 2428

Constructive criticism on the images welcome. I want to know when to stop tinkering with my setup.

[CPK]

Nice looking setup! I can't seem to view any of the pictures, though. I don't know if it's a problem on my end or not.

[sand]

@CPK I can see all 4 images (setup, coin 1, coin 2, and coin 3).

@maridvnvm That's an interesting setup. I also use a copy stand, and it has greatly improved my photos. Do you think, that the plasticine will leave a residue on the coins? For my photos, I finally gave up on trying to have a nice background (dowel rods, cloth backgrounds, velvet backgrounds, plastic backgrounds, etc). Instead, I use the web site https://www.remove.bg/ to digitally remove the background. It's not perfect, but it's good enough for my purposes. Here are my photos of 1 of my coins, before and after using https://www.remove.bg/. I used a blue cloth background. Note that, the photos with the background removed, are decreased in resolution to 900 vertical pixels.

 

 

Edited September 16 by sand

[CPK]

5 minutes ago, sand said:

@CPK I can see all 4 images (setup, coin 1, coin 2, and coin 3).

@maridvnvm That's an interesting setup. I also use a copy stand, and it has greatly improved my photos. Do you think, that the plasticine will leave a residue on the coins? For my photos, I finally gave up on trying to have a nice background (dowel rods, various materials, etc). Instead, I use the web site https://www.remove.bg/ to digitally remove the background. It's not perfect, but it's good enough for me. Here are my photos of 1 of my coins, before and after using https://www.remove.bg/. I used a blue cloth background. Note that, the photos with the background removed, are decreased in resolution to 900 vertical pixels.

 

 

Must've been on my end, then. I can see them all now.

[Original Skin Coins]

Great shots! I love the color you got on the tetradrachm. I think the Septimius Severus is perhaps just a tad overexposed, mainly on the obverse. Focus looks good on all three.

Edited September 16 by Original Skin Coins

[rasiel]

With respect, I think your setup is overly complicated and misused for what you're setting out to do. The point of the shroud is to diffuse light but the lighting here is fully incident; ie. it's not doing anything because it's all coming from through slits overhead. Also, going to a copy stand is a step backward in my opinion as you lose the ability to angle the focal plane. Lastly, two light sources often ends up being a cure worse than the disease. You gain the advantage of more easily eliminating unwanted shadows but at the cost of much trickier color balance and correct exposure. Note the harsh lighting on the Probus and the overblown areas on the silver.

It seems to me if you want to realize the potential of the shroud then the light sources should be positioned such that they're coming in from the sides. The image will be darker but you can compensate through slower shutter speeds. You might also benefit from longer working distances between lens and coin to aid in the positioning of the lights. When the budget allows, trade up to a high quality macro lens of greater than 75mm and dedicated macro lighting.

Rasiel

Ps. For anyone who reads this and wants feedback re their setup it's always preferable if you do test shots against pocket change rather than ancient coins because this is more relatable. We all know how a nickel or a penny should look like.

[maridvnvm]

Ras,

I don't just use this setup for coins and the light tent is there for diffusion for other photography.

Whilst I have two light sources, I am only using one of them for my coins.

This is a dedicated 60mm Macro lens.

[Brennos]

I've personally found that a black background doesn't work well with silver coins and tends to produce overexposed results. 

I use a white background for silver coins and for darker bronzes, I use a more or less dark grey background depending on the coin. I also use remove.db in order to digitally remove the background.

example for my "shiniest" silver coin and for a bronze coin with a dark green patina.  :

 

 

[Anaximander]

@maridvnvm You are moving in the right direction, with a copy stand, a light box for diffusion, and better illumination.  There is (1) shooting photographs and (2) subsequent photo processing.  As to the first, the copy stand gives you the ability to hold the camera at a proper distance, using a fixed 60mm macro lens. It's more practical and manageable than a tripod.  Your light box should help the consistency of your lighting. With good lighting comes proper light color balance and adequate brightness.  Incandescent lights get so hot! Your new lights are probably safer LEDs, but they may not have temperature settings or enough lumens for all tasks. 

Can we see a photo before photo processing?  Personally, I aim for optimal initial photos and minimal photo processing. That means solving for any big exposure and color balance issues, and that takes trial-and-error (yes, there's always some brightness and color balancing to do post-processing). 

Your light box should help the consistency of your lighting. Depending on your wattage, perhaps you can use both of your lights at maximum, illuminating from the sides. I shoot axial, bouncing one large light off of glass, as I found direct lighting to be fussy (every coin is an adventure, with high risk of blown-out highlights). I am experimenting anew with my 60W-equivalent LED light, which I shoot at 5600K, trying a honeycomb grid.

  

Camera settings are just so important and so hard to nail down: average white balance (often set according to light source type), light metering (center-weighted?), aperture (where I avoid too-narrow depth of field, often f/8-f/11), and stopping down exposure (I often stop down +1 for silver and gold on my 18% grey background). Speaking of background, I see a lot of coin photography being done on black backgrounds, which has the virtue of negating coin shadows and effectively brightening exposure of the coin itself.  I'll stick with a grey background, since that's built into the copy stand and it works for me. Ultimately, I just let the software grind out the background. 

[maridvnvm]

@Anaximander

Many thanks for your reply. I just have a personal preference for black background at present.

I use a custom white balance adjustment to cater for the light temperature of the LED lamp. I have always done this even when I historically used a daylight incandescent bulb just to make things entirely consistent.

The processing done on my images are as follows:-

Convert from RAW to JPG
Crop
scale image to 33%
combine obverse and reverse into a single image

No other post processing has been done on these images. I prefer not to have to perform any post processing. I prefer not to do any colour balancing in post processing and will limit myself to brightness adjustment only but try to avoid that where possibly. 

I have taken on board the variety of comments made here thus far 

On 9/16/2024 at 5:02 AM, rasiel said:

Note the harsh lighting on the Probus and the overblown areas on the silver.

I will do more experimentation this weekend to see what I can improve on. I have been busy with work but plan to spend a few hours with experimenting on getting better results. I will also try some photos with some pocket currency to see what results I get. 

[DCCR]

On 9/16/2024 at 1:36 AM, sand said:

I finally gave up on trying to have a nice background

The easiest way I've found to handle this is to put the coins on a glass sheet which is suspended above a white background. It's easy to cut out and replace with any background you like. The problem with taking it on a coloured background like yours is that the colour is reflected onto the coin, so it ends up with blue edges no matter what you digitally place it on.  

[DCCR]

The problem I always had with this kind of setup, and it shows a bit on your coins, is that the diffuser just can't diffuse the light source enough, so you end up with harsh highlights. In my setup I bounce the main light off the ceiling to diffuse it, and then use a dimmer side light to add the highlights (sometimes I use two of these). This normally works better if I aim it at a reflector so it bounces light back onto the coin, but sometimes I just bounce that off the ceiling (at a different angle) or the wall.  Any light pointing directly at the coin can give harsh results. If you have to point any light at the coin then move it as far away as possible.

[Original Skin Coins]

37 minutes ago, DCCR said:

The problem I always had with this kind of setup, and it shows a bit on your coins, is that the diffuser just can't diffuse the light source enough, so you end up with harsh highlights. In my setup I bounce the main light off the ceiling to diffuse it, and then use a dimmer side light to add the highlights (sometimes I use two of these). This normally works better if I aim it at a reflector so it bounces light back onto the coin, but sometimes I just bounce that off the ceiling (at a different angle) or the wall.  Any light pointing directly at the coin can give harsh results. If you have to point any light at the coin then move it as far away as possible.

Interesting, never heard of that technique before (bouncing light off the ceiling) - will have to give that a try on my own coins. I also tried diffusers at one point and felt the light coming through them was still too harsh. 

[maridvnvm]

Some re-arrangement of the lighting. Here is my next attempt at the Septimius Severus denarius.

More experimenting over the next couple of days.

[rasiel]

11 hours ago, Original Skin Coins said:

Interesting, never heard of that technique before (bouncing light off the ceiling) - will have to give that a try on my own coins. I also tried diffusers at one point and felt the light coming through them was still too harsh. 

That's for flash photography, not continuous lighting. Don't bother, you'll never get enough photons for proper exposure using a lamp. Besides, flash is really tricky to 'dial in'. Well, for me at least.

Rasiel

[DCCR]

5 hours ago, rasiel said:

That's for flash photography, not continuous lighting. Don't bother, you'll never get enough photons for proper exposure using a lamp. Besides, flash is really tricky to 'dial in'. Well, for me at least.

Rasiel

It's easier with flash or studio strobes, but it works with continuous lighting as well. You might need a brighter light though, or a longer exposure.  Getting flash and studio strobes set up isn’t that hard because the same general rules apply each time:

1. don’t point directly at the coin,
2. bounce your main flood-fill light off the ceiling
3. set up the exposure for the main flood-fill light first

After that it's just playing with the side light(s) until you get the results you like.  Sometimes I don’t even need them.  I recently photographed a hoard of around 400 coins with this approach. Once you get a good result for one coin, just leave the setup alone.  

However, regardless of the light source (continuous or flash), you need to diffuse it to get rid of the problems of having a point source. That requires distance and a big diffuser, and your ceiling is probably the best option you have. 

In terms of making coin photography easier, switching from continuous lighting to flash (and finally studio strobes) was the best thing I ever did. Messing around with light sources that were too weak to give a fast exposure time, but still powerful enough to give harsh highlights, was a huge source of frustration and disappointment. Strobes were a game changer (and having a constant colour balance on all lights was also handy).

Edited September 21 by DCCR

[maridvnvm]

I apologise for blitzing you all with updates. I have taken on a variety of the advice from above and thought I would inflict my latest results.

Following on the recommendations of @rasiel, I have migrated from my 60mm macro to my 105 mm macro lens.

I am persevering with my light tent, which I have used for the last 20 years in my coin photography, and ajdusted the lighting until I start getting results that I like. I have taken several hundred images this morning experimenting but have settled on a setup for now and here are the updated results. I am including the same Septimius Severus denarius and Probus from the OP but also added a more challenging Probus which has an obverse with silvering on the obverse with mixed tone going from silver to gold and a gols toned silvering reverse.

[maridvnvm]

Having reviewed the Probus ADVENTVS on a couple of computers I can see that it is a little dark on some. I will go back adjust the exposure.....

[rasiel]

These are great shots. Unless you want to be obsessive for pursuit of the best possible pics in my opinion you can call it a day here because any improvement in lighting from here on out is going to follow the law of diminishing returns. Leave the setup as is and now move on to the next challenge. I'd say next you can prolly squeeze out a bit more sharpness. Or maybe you saved with compression?

A 105mm prime macro is the perfect lens for coin macro photography. It gives you the right working distance between coin and front of lens to set up lighting while still being close enough to pull in all the details that you are likely to need. 

To prove the point, here's an unretouched photo of a penny. All I've done is rotate and crop out some whitespace - no color correction or sharpness or any other manipulation. 

This is (coincidentally) using a 105mm Nikon "micro Nikkor" lens on an aging D850 body from about 12 inches, single 5000k lamp with no diffuser. Shot at f/16 1/15s ISO125 using default JPEG settings.

And here's an inset at 100% to show the detail possible using this lens from this distance. Again, nothing was done to boost the sharpness/contrast, etc.

Now please repeat this shot at your end. Hopefully you have a wheat penny around. This exercise is to compare the wheat ear detail.

Rasiel

[rasiel]

One final sample that I think is helpful. Here's the same image again blown up to 200% to highlight the area with most detail.

Come to think of it these wheaties make a great "test pattern" against which to check sharpness 

[maridvnvm]

I am sure I have some US currency somewhere..... let me see what I can find.

[maridvnvm]

I have this silver dollar... not great condition but should be something you can relate to. As shot. No processing other than converting to jpg from RAW and reduced to 30% full size.

Also a cropped in section at full size.

[maridvnvm]

I have picked out a few challenging coins to photograph from my early Probus - Lugdunum coins.

These were all taken with no changes to setup or settings and there was no post processing other than converting to jpg from raw, reducing the image size to 33% and combining obverse and reverse.

This coin combines a partial sand patina with a set of hard, green adhesions. The coin isn't great in terms of detail but the colouration is pretty close to the coin in hand.

The next coin has lots of silvering but eh silvering has been lost from the highest point across the coin on both sides. Areas of the silvering has toned to a rusty colour in areas.

This one has flat centers and patchy silvering. Areas of blue visible on both sides where the coin was evidently in contact with something.

I chose these as they all had their own challenges 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I wish I had these problems. Best I can do is a soup can.

[Kaleun96]

On 9/16/2024 at 11:50 AM, Brennos said:

I've personally found that a black background doesn't work well with silver coins and tends to produce overexposed results.

That's more of a camera/user problem than a background problem. If you can control the exposure manually through shutter speed, ISO, and aperture or if you can change the metering mode (e.g. from frame average to point or centre) then it doesn't matter if the background is white or black. It's only an issue if the camera is on auto or the settings can't be changed.

Even if taking coin photos with a mobile phone, I'd recommend using a "pro" mode that lets you get as much control as possible over the camera. Not all phone manufacturers offer this level of manual control but it's definitely a lot better than relying on the default settings, same goes for DSLR/mirrorless cameras too.