Benefactor DonnaML Posted September 17 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted September 17 (edited) This has long been one of my favorite Roman Imperial types, and one I've wanted for what seems like forever. Our own @Roman Collector has a beautiful example that he's posted a number of times, and I've been highly envious! But until very recently, I hadn't come across an example that was nice enough for me to want -- not that I demand perfection by any means -- that wasn't exorbitantly expensive. (I admit that I've had an impressive example offered by Shanna Schmidt on my VCoins watch list for nearly four years, but I simply couldn't bring myself to spend anything close to her asking price of nearly $1,000. Obviously, nobody else has been able to either.) And then last week I happened to be looking at cgb.fr's coins for sale on its website, and saw a specimen of the type in very decent condition offered for what I thought was a reasonable price. As a bonus, it came with a 1926 hoard pedigree and an old coin ticket. So I immediately bought it -- my first ancient coin purchase in more than a month, as I've been cutting back of late, but I couldn't resist. It arrived today and I'm very pleased. Julia Domna AR Denarius AD 205 (Sear) or AD 209 (Foss), Rome Mint. Obv. Bareheaded, draped bust of Julia Domna facing right, seen three-quarters forward, hair in braids, pulled back behind her head, IVLIA – AVGVSTA / Rev. Cybele (or Julia Domna as Cybele), towered, draped, seated left driving a quadriga of lions, holding reins with her left hand and holding a branch in her right hand, MATER AVGG [ = “Mother of the Augusti”].* RIC IV-1 Septimius Severus 562 (p. 168); RSC III Julia Domna 117 (ill. p. 56), BMCRE V 48, Sear RCV II 6592 (ill. p. 494); Foss, Julia Domna 209.9 (p. 174) [Clive Foss, Roman Historical Coins (Seaby, London, 1990)]. 18.5 mm., 3.61 g., 12 h. Retail purchase 11 Sep 2024 from cgb.fr (Compagnie Générale de Bourse), Paris, France; ex MDC Monaco (Monnaies de Collection), Auction 8, 9 Mar 2024, Lot 50; from 1926 Limoges Coin Hoard (with original coin ticket).** The cgb.fr photo: The photo accurately represents the coin's current appearance. It seems clear that cgb cleaned it after acquiring it at the MDC Monaco auction, in which it was described as having a "black patina" and was depicted in this photo: So the coin no longer has its former appearance, but the results don't bother me at all. The coin was also accompanied by this beautifully-handwritten old coin ticket, obviously dating back a long time: Can anyone explain the reference to what looks like "occo[???] page 282 ligne 10"? *David Sear dates this type to AD 205. (See Sear RCV II 6592 at p. 494.) But Foss asserts at pp. 173-174 that the title “MATER AVGG” -- with two “G’s,” meaning “Mother of the Augusti” -- was used by Julia Domna only after Geta was elevated from Caesar to Augustus in AD 209, joining his brother Caracalla. For the symbolism of Cybele, the “Great Mother,” driving a lion quadriga, see Ovid’s Fasti, Book IV, in the verses where Ovid asks the Muse Erato “Why do lions, these wild beasts, bowing their heads for the first time under the yoke, come to harness themselves to the chariot of the goddess?”, and she answers “It was Cybele who softened the ferocious manners of men; her chariot is a symbol of this benefit.” **For a description of the 1926 Limoges Hoard, see the website “Coin Hoards of the Roman Empire” at https://chre.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/hoard/3774: Hoard name LIMOGES 1926-1943 Alternative names AUGUSTORITUM; AVGVSTORITVM Date of discovery (from) 7 May 1926 (to) 1943 Total number of coins 7000 Summary The hoard comprised a jar [with two handles, placed in a small silo] containing more than 7,000 denarii and some radiates. Some contemporary reports suggest that there were as many as 12,000 coins. Hugon suggested that the gaps in types and paucity of the latest issues and the presence almost exclusively of denarii indicated that the hoard was sorted by type and denomination and that originally there may have been further jars. Indeed, in 1943, a further vessel containing 28 denarii was found at the same findspot and is considered to be part of the same hoard. Discovery method Building work Comment The hoard was found when digging the foundations for a gasworks on rue de Sainte-Madeleine. Coins Summary See table below. Coins of Julia Domna were the third most numerous in the hoard, after those of Caracalla and Septimius Severus. Imperial Antoninus Pius Antoninus Pius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Antoninus Pius Faustina II (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Marcus Aurelius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 6 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Lucilla (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Commodus Commodus (Augustus) Rome Denarius 4 Imperial Pertinax Pertinax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Clodius Albinus Clodius Albinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Septimius Severus Septimius Severus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 1463 Imperial Septimius Severus Julia Domna (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 1034 Imperial Septimius Severus Geta (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 680 Imperial Septimius Severus Plautilla (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 144 Imperial Caracalla Caracalla (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2139 Imperial Macrinus Macrinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 53 Imperial Macrinus Diadumenian (Caesar) Uncertain Denarius 7 Imperial Elagabalus Elagabalus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 76 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Paula (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 13 Imperial Elagabalus Aquilia Severa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 3 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Soaemias (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 16 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Maesa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 98 Imperial Severus Alexander Severus Alexander (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 525 Imperial Severus Alexander Orbiana (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Severus Alexander Julia Mamaea (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 93 Imperial Maximinus I Thrax Maximinus I Thrax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 13 Imperial Balbinus and Pupienus Balbinus (Augustus) Rome Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Gordian III Gordian III (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Trebonianus Gallus Trebonianus Gallus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Valerian I and Gallienus Valerian I (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Postumus Postumus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 The MDC Monaco auction in March 2024 from which cgb.fr apparently acquired this coin included 10 coins from the 1926 Limoges Hoard (Lots 46-55, of which this coin was Lot 50), all of them with the same black patina as shown in the photo above, and all accompanied by an old coin ticket like the one that came with mine. All sold for what I think were very low prices, six of the ten below $100. Perhaps cgb.fr saw the potential increase in resale value that cleaning might achieve, although I don't know how many they acquired. I have no information on how these specimens (or the handful of other examples from this hoard I was able to find on acsearch) reached the market, or on who has possessed them – or the rest of the hoard – over the last century. Please post anything you think is relevant. Edited September 17 by DonnaML 44 1 1 14 3 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisimo Posted September 17 · Supporter Share Posted September 17 Fantastic! I love the old provenance too. A lion quadriga seem so over-the-top Romans showing off. 🙂 3 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kowsky Posted September 17 · Member Share Posted September 17 Donna, Congrats on an excellent score 🤩. The coin wasn't abusively cleaned & actually strengthened most of the details. The later date of 209 makes more sense, when Geta was given Augustus status. When Severus died the women of that dynasty became the de facto emperors, since their sons & grandsons didn't have the intelligence & leadership qualities for the position. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayAg47 Posted September 17 · Member Share Posted September 17 (edited) That’s a nice example. I remember you talking about this type as one of your wishlist coin on the other forum, glad you found one. Julia Domna is special to me, since my first ever denarius was hers bought from Numiscorner. The cheapest I could find! Although my favourite among her issues would be the nude Venus reverse. Edited September 17 by JayAg47 13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spargrodan Posted September 17 · Member Share Posted September 17 3 hours ago, DonnaML said: This has long been one of my favorite Roman Imperial types, and one I've wanted for what seems like forever. Our own @Roman Collector has a beautiful example that he's posted a number of times, and I've been highly envious! But until very recently, I hadn't come across an example that was nice enough for me to want -- not that I demand perfection by any means -- that wasn't exorbitantly expensive. (I admit that I've had an impressive example offered by Shanna Schmidt on my VCoins watch list for nearly four years, but I simply couldn't bring myself to spend anything close to her asking price of nearly $1,000. Obviously, nobody else has been able to either.) And then last week I happened to be looking at cgb.fr's coins for sale on its website, and saw a specimen of the type in very decent condition offered for what I thought was a reasonable price. As a bonus, it came with a 1926 hoard pedigree and an old coin ticket. So I immediately bought it -- my first ancient coin purchase in more than a month, as I've been cutting back of late, but I couldn't resist. It arrived today and I'm very pleased. Julia Domna AR Denarius AD 205 (Sear) or AD 209 (Foss), Rome Mint. Obv. Bareheaded, draped bust of Julia Domna facing right, seen three-quarters forward, hair in braids, pulled back behind her head, IVLIA – AVGVSTA / Rev. Cybele (or Julia Domna as Cybele), towered, draped, seated left driving a quadriga of lions, holding reins with her left hand and holding a branch in her right hand, MATER AVGG [ = “Mother of the Augusti”].* RIC IV-1 Septimius Severus 562 (p. 168); RSC III Julia Domna 117 (ill. p. 56), BMCRE V 48, Sear RCV II 6592 (ill. p. 494); Foss, Julia Domna 209.9 (p. 174) [Clive Foss, Roman Historical Coins (Seaby, London, 1990)]. 18.5 mm., 3.61 g., 12 h. Retail purchase 11 Sep 2024 from cgb.fr (Compagnie Générale de Bourse), Paris, France; ex MDC Monaco (Monnaies de Collection), Auction 8, 9 Mar 2024, Lot 50; from 1926 Limoges Coin Hoard (with original coin ticket).** The cgb.fr photo: The photo accurately represents the coin's current appearance. It seems clear that cgb cleaned it after acquiring it at the MDC Monaco auction, in which it was described as having a "black patina" and was depicted in this photo: So the coin no longer has its former appearance, but the results don't bother me at all. The coin was also accompanied by this beautifully-handwritten old coin ticket, obviously dating back a long time: Can anyone explain the reference to what looks like "occo[???] page 282 ligne 10"? *David Sear dates this type to AD 205. (See Sear RCV II 6592 at p. 494.) But Foss asserts at pp. 173-174 that the title “MATER AVGG” -- with two “G’s,” meaning “Mother of the Augusti” -- was used by Julia Domna only after Geta was elevated from Caesar to Augustus in AD 209, joining his brother Caracalla. For the symbolism of Cybele, the “Great Mother,” driving a lion quadriga, see Ovid’s Fasti, Book IV, in the verses where Ovid asks the Muse Erato “Why do lions, these wild beasts, bowing their heads for the first time under the yoke, come to harness themselves to the chariot of the goddess?”, and she answers “It was Cybele who softened the ferocious manners of men; her chariot is a symbol of this benefit.” **For a description of the 1926 Limoges Hoard, see the website “Coin Hoards of the Roman Empire” at https://chre.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/hoard/3774: Hoard name LIMOGES 1926-1943 Alternative names AUGUSTORITUM; AVGVSTORITVM Date of discovery (from) 7 May 1926 (to) 1943 Total number of coins 7000 Summary The hoard comprised a jar [with two handles, placed in a small silo] containing more than 7,000 denarii and some radiates. Some contemporary reports suggest that there were as many as 12,000 coins. Hugon suggested that the gaps in types and paucity of the latest issues and the presence almost exclusively of denarii indicated that the hoard was sorted by type and denomination and that originally there may have been further jars. Indeed, in 1943, a further vessel containing 28 denarii was found at the same findspot and is considered to be part of the same hoard. Discovery method Building work Comment The hoard was found when digging the foundations for a gasworks on rue de Sainte-Madeleine. Coins Summary See table below. Coins of Julia Domna were the third most numerous in the hoard, after those of Caracalla and Septimius Severus. Imperial Antoninus Pius Antoninus Pius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Antoninus Pius Faustina II (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Marcus Aurelius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 6 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Lucilla (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Commodus Commodus (Augustus) Rome Denarius 4 Imperial Pertinax Pertinax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Clodius Albinus Clodius Albinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Septimius Severus Septimius Severus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 1463 Imperial Septimius Severus Julia Domna (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 1034 Imperial Septimius Severus Geta (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 680 Imperial Septimius Severus Plautilla (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 144 Imperial Caracalla Caracalla (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2139 Imperial Macrinus Macrinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 53 Imperial Macrinus Diadumenian (Caesar) Uncertain Denarius 7 Imperial Elagabalus Elagabalus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 76 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Paula (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 13 Imperial Elagabalus Aquilia Severa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 3 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Soaemias (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 16 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Maesa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 98 Imperial Severus Alexander Severus Alexander (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 525 Imperial Severus Alexander Orbiana (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Severus Alexander Julia Mamaea (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 93 Imperial Maximinus I Thrax Maximinus I Thrax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 13 Imperial Balbinus and Pupienus Balbinus (Augustus) Rome Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Gordian III Gordian III (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Trebonianus Gallus Trebonianus Gallus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Valerian I and Gallienus Valerian I (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Postumus Postumus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 The MDC Monaco auction in March 2024 from which cbg.fr apparently acquired this coin included 10 coins from the 1926 Limoges Hoard (Lots 46-55, of which this coin was Lot 50), all of them with the same black patina as shown in the photo above, and all accompanied by an old coin ticket like the one that came with mine. All sold for what I think were very low prices, six of the ten below $100. Perhaps cgb.fr saw the potential increase in resale value that cleaning might achieve, although I don't know how many they acquired. I have no information on how these specimens (or the handful of other examples from this hoard I was able to find on acsearch) reached the market, or on who has possessed them – or the rest of the hoard – over the last century. Please post anything you think is relevant. Great find CGB is one of my favourite dealers but I didn't know they saved old tickets that great to hear! Also a stunning coin and the cleaning don't bother me at all neither I think it actually turned out better. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuntbedruv Posted September 17 · Member Share Posted September 17 3 hours ago, DonnaML said: This has long been one of my favorite Roman Imperial types, and one I've wanted for what seems like forever. Our own @Roman Collector has a beautiful example that he's posted a number of times, and I've been highly envious! But until very recently, I hadn't come across an example that was nice enough for me to want -- not that I demand perfection by any means -- that wasn't exorbitantly expensive. (I admit that I've had an impressive example offered by Shanna Schmidt on my VCoins watch list for nearly four years, but I simply couldn't bring myself to spend anything close to her asking price of nearly $1,000. Obviously, nobody else has been able to either.) And then last week I happened to be looking at cgb.fr's coins for sale on its website, and saw a specimen of the type in very decent condition offered for what I thought was a reasonable price. As a bonus, it came with a 1926 hoard pedigree and an old coin ticket. So I immediately bought it -- my first ancient coin purchase in more than a month, as I've been cutting back of late, but I couldn't resist. It arrived today and I'm very pleased. Julia Domna AR Denarius AD 205 (Sear) or AD 209 (Foss), Rome Mint. Obv. Bareheaded, draped bust of Julia Domna facing right, seen three-quarters forward, hair in braids, pulled back behind her head, IVLIA – AVGVSTA / Rev. Cybele (or Julia Domna as Cybele), towered, draped, seated left driving a quadriga of lions, holding reins with her left hand and holding a branch in her right hand, MATER AVGG [ = “Mother of the Augusti”].* RIC IV-1 Septimius Severus 562 (p. 168); RSC III Julia Domna 117 (ill. p. 56), BMCRE V 48, Sear RCV II 6592 (ill. p. 494); Foss, Julia Domna 209.9 (p. 174) [Clive Foss, Roman Historical Coins (Seaby, London, 1990)]. 18.5 mm., 3.61 g., 12 h. Retail purchase 11 Sep 2024 from cgb.fr (Compagnie Générale de Bourse), Paris, France; ex MDC Monaco (Monnaies de Collection), Auction 8, 9 Mar 2024, Lot 50; from 1926 Limoges Coin Hoard (with original coin ticket).** The cgb.fr photo: The photo accurately represents the coin's current appearance. It seems clear that cgb cleaned it after acquiring it at the MDC Monaco auction, in which it was described as having a "black patina" and was depicted in this photo: So the coin no longer has its former appearance, but the results don't bother me at all. The coin was also accompanied by this beautifully-handwritten old coin ticket, obviously dating back a long time: Can anyone explain the reference to what looks like "occo[???] page 282 ligne 10"? *David Sear dates this type to AD 205. (See Sear RCV II 6592 at p. 494.) But Foss asserts at pp. 173-174 that the title “MATER AVGG” -- with two “G’s,” meaning “Mother of the Augusti” -- was used by Julia Domna only after Geta was elevated from Caesar to Augustus in AD 209, joining his brother Caracalla. For the symbolism of Cybele, the “Great Mother,” driving a lion quadriga, see Ovid’s Fasti, Book IV, in the verses where Ovid asks the Muse Erato “Why do lions, these wild beasts, bowing their heads for the first time under the yoke, come to harness themselves to the chariot of the goddess?”, and she answers “It was Cybele who softened the ferocious manners of men; her chariot is a symbol of this benefit.” **For a description of the 1926 Limoges Hoard, see the website “Coin Hoards of the Roman Empire” at https://chre.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/hoard/3774: Hoard name LIMOGES 1926-1943 Alternative names AUGUSTORITUM; AVGVSTORITVM Date of discovery (from) 7 May 1926 (to) 1943 Total number of coins 7000 Summary The hoard comprised a jar [with two handles, placed in a small silo] containing more than 7,000 denarii and some radiates. Some contemporary reports suggest that there were as many as 12,000 coins. Hugon suggested that the gaps in types and paucity of the latest issues and the presence almost exclusively of denarii indicated that the hoard was sorted by type and denomination and that originally there may have been further jars. Indeed, in 1943, a further vessel containing 28 denarii was found at the same findspot and is considered to be part of the same hoard. Discovery method Building work Comment The hoard was found when digging the foundations for a gasworks on rue de Sainte-Madeleine. Coins Summary See table below. Coins of Julia Domna were the third most numerous in the hoard, after those of Caracalla and Septimius Severus. Imperial Antoninus Pius Antoninus Pius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Antoninus Pius Faustina II (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Marcus Aurelius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 6 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Lucilla (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Commodus Commodus (Augustus) Rome Denarius 4 Imperial Pertinax Pertinax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Clodius Albinus Clodius Albinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Septimius Severus Septimius Severus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 1463 Imperial Septimius Severus Julia Domna (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 1034 Imperial Septimius Severus Geta (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 680 Imperial Septimius Severus Plautilla (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 144 Imperial Caracalla Caracalla (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2139 Imperial Macrinus Macrinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 53 Imperial Macrinus Diadumenian (Caesar) Uncertain Denarius 7 Imperial Elagabalus Elagabalus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 76 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Paula (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 13 Imperial Elagabalus Aquilia Severa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 3 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Soaemias (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 16 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Maesa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 98 Imperial Severus Alexander Severus Alexander (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 525 Imperial Severus Alexander Orbiana (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Severus Alexander Julia Mamaea (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 93 Imperial Maximinus I Thrax Maximinus I Thrax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 13 Imperial Balbinus and Pupienus Balbinus (Augustus) Rome Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Gordian III Gordian III (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Trebonianus Gallus Trebonianus Gallus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Valerian I and Gallienus Valerian I (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Postumus Postumus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 The MDC Monaco auction in March 2024 from which cbg.fr apparently acquired this coin included 10 coins from the 1926 Limoges Hoard (Lots 46-55, of which this coin was Lot 50), all of them with the same black patina as shown in the photo above, and all accompanied by an old coin ticket like the one that came with mine. All sold for what I think were very low prices, six of the ten below $100. Perhaps cgb.fr saw the potential increase in resale value that cleaning might achieve, although I don't know how many they acquired. I have no information on how these specimens (or the handful of other examples from this hoard I was able to find on acsearch) reached the market, or on who has possessed them – or the rest of the hoard – over the last century. Please post anything you think is relevant. 3 hours ago, DonnaML said: This has long been one of my favorite Roman Imperial types, and one I've wanted for what seems like forever. Our own @Roman Collector has a beautiful example that he's posted a number of times, and I've been highly envious! But until very recently, I hadn't come across an example that was nice enough for me to want -- not that I demand perfection by any means -- that wasn't exorbitantly expensive. (I admit that I've had an impressive example offered by Shanna Schmidt on my VCoins watch list for nearly four years, but I simply couldn't bring myself to spend anything close to her asking price of nearly $1,000. Obviously, nobody else has been able to either.) And then last week I happened to be looking at cgb.fr's coins for sale on its website, and saw a specimen of the type in very decent condition offered for what I thought was a reasonable price. As a bonus, it came with a 1926 hoard pedigree and an old coin ticket. So I immediately bought it -- my first ancient coin purchase in more than a month, as I've been cutting back of late, but I couldn't resist. It arrived today and I'm very pleased. Julia Domna AR Denarius AD 205 (Sear) or AD 209 (Foss), Rome Mint. Obv. Bareheaded, draped bust of Julia Domna facing right, seen three-quarters forward, hair in braids, pulled back behind her head, IVLIA – AVGVSTA / Rev. Cybele (or Julia Domna as Cybele), towered, draped, seated left driving a quadriga of lions, holding reins with her left hand and holding a branch in her right hand, MATER AVGG [ = “Mother of the Augusti”].* RIC IV-1 Septimius Severus 562 (p. 168); RSC III Julia Domna 117 (ill. p. 56), BMCRE V 48, Sear RCV II 6592 (ill. p. 494); Foss, Julia Domna 209.9 (p. 174) [Clive Foss, Roman Historical Coins (Seaby, London, 1990)]. 18.5 mm., 3.61 g., 12 h. Retail purchase 11 Sep 2024 from cgb.fr (Compagnie Générale de Bourse), Paris, France; ex MDC Monaco (Monnaies de Collection), Auction 8, 9 Mar 2024, Lot 50; from 1926 Limoges Coin Hoard (with original coin ticket).** The cgb.fr photo: The photo accurately represents the coin's current appearance. It seems clear that cgb cleaned it after acquiring it at the MDC Monaco auction, in which it was described as having a "black patina" and was depicted in this photo: So the coin no longer has its former appearance, but the results don't bother me at all. The coin was also accompanied by this beautifully-handwritten old coin ticket, obviously dating back a long time: Can anyone explain the reference to what looks like "occo[???] page 282 ligne 10"? *David Sear dates this type to AD 205. (See Sear RCV II 6592 at p. 494.) But Foss asserts at pp. 173-174 that the title “MATER AVGG” -- with two “G’s,” meaning “Mother of the Augusti” -- was used by Julia Domna only after Geta was elevated from Caesar to Augustus in AD 209, joining his brother Caracalla. For the symbolism of Cybele, the “Great Mother,” driving a lion quadriga, see Ovid’s Fasti, Book IV, in the verses where Ovid asks the Muse Erato “Why do lions, these wild beasts, bowing their heads for the first time under the yoke, come to harness themselves to the chariot of the goddess?”, and she answers “It was Cybele who softened the ferocious manners of men; her chariot is a symbol of this benefit.” **For a description of the 1926 Limoges Hoard, see the website “Coin Hoards of the Roman Empire” at https://chre.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/hoard/3774: Hoard name LIMOGES 1926-1943 Alternative names AUGUSTORITUM; AVGVSTORITVM Date of discovery (from) 7 May 1926 (to) 1943 Total number of coins 7000 Summary The hoard comprised a jar [with two handles, placed in a small silo] containing more than 7,000 denarii and some radiates. Some contemporary reports suggest that there were as many as 12,000 coins. Hugon suggested that the gaps in types and paucity of the latest issues and the presence almost exclusively of denarii indicated that the hoard was sorted by type and denomination and that originally there may have been further jars. Indeed, in 1943, a further vessel containing 28 denarii was found at the same findspot and is considered to be part of the same hoard. Discovery method Building work Comment The hoard was found when digging the foundations for a gasworks on rue de Sainte-Madeleine. Coins Summary See table below. Coins of Julia Domna were the third most numerous in the hoard, after those of Caracalla and Septimius Severus. Imperial Antoninus Pius Antoninus Pius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Antoninus Pius Faustina II (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Marcus Aurelius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 6 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Lucilla (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Commodus Commodus (Augustus) Rome Denarius 4 Imperial Pertinax Pertinax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Clodius Albinus Clodius Albinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Septimius Severus Septimius Severus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 1463 Imperial Septimius Severus Julia Domna (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 1034 Imperial Septimius Severus Geta (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 680 Imperial Septimius Severus Plautilla (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 144 Imperial Caracalla Caracalla (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2139 Imperial Macrinus Macrinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 53 Imperial Macrinus Diadumenian (Caesar) Uncertain Denarius 7 Imperial Elagabalus Elagabalus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 76 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Paula (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 13 Imperial Elagabalus Aquilia Severa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 3 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Soaemias (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 16 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Maesa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 98 Imperial Severus Alexander Severus Alexander (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 525 Imperial Severus Alexander Orbiana (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Severus Alexander Julia Mamaea (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 93 Imperial Maximinus I Thrax Maximinus I Thrax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 13 Imperial Balbinus and Pupienus Balbinus (Augustus) Rome Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Gordian III Gordian III (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Trebonianus Gallus Trebonianus Gallus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Valerian I and Gallienus Valerian I (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Postumus Postumus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 The MDC Monaco auction in March 2024 from which cbg.fr apparently acquired this coin included 10 coins from the 1926 Limoges Hoard (Lots 46-55, of which this coin was Lot 50), all of them with the same black patina as shown in the photo above, and all accompanied by an old coin ticket like the one that came with mine. All sold for what I think were very low prices, six of the ten below $100. Perhaps cgb.fr saw the potential increase in resale value that cleaning might achieve, although I don't know how many they acquired. I have no information on how these specimens (or the handful of other examples from this hoard I was able to find on acsearch) reached the market, or on who has possessed them – or the rest of the hoard – over the last century. Please post anything you think is relevant. A splendid coin with an equally splendid provenance. Cybele and her cult have always been of great interest to me. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Atherton Posted September 17 · Member Share Posted September 17 4 hours ago, DonnaML said: This has long been one of my favorite Roman Imperial types, and one I've wanted for what seems like forever. Our own @Roman Collector has a beautiful example that he's posted a number of times, and I've been highly envious! But until very recently, I hadn't come across an example that was nice enough for me to want -- not that I demand perfection by any means -- that wasn't exorbitantly expensive. (I admit that I've had an impressive example offered by Shanna Schmidt on my VCoins watch list for nearly four years, but I simply couldn't bring myself to spend anything close to her asking price of nearly $1,000. Obviously, nobody else has been able to either.) And then last week I happened to be looking at cgb.fr's coins for sale on its website, and saw a specimen of the type in very decent condition offered for what I thought was a reasonable price. As a bonus, it came with a 1926 hoard pedigree and an old coin ticket. So I immediately bought it -- my first ancient coin purchase in more than a month, as I've been cutting back of late, but I couldn't resist. It arrived today and I'm very pleased. Julia Domna AR Denarius AD 205 (Sear) or AD 209 (Foss), Rome Mint. Obv. Bareheaded, draped bust of Julia Domna facing right, seen three-quarters forward, hair in braids, pulled back behind her head, IVLIA – AVGVSTA / Rev. Cybele (or Julia Domna as Cybele), towered, draped, seated left driving a quadriga of lions, holding reins with her left hand and holding a branch in her right hand, MATER AVGG [ = “Mother of the Augusti”].* RIC IV-1 Septimius Severus 562 (p. 168); RSC III Julia Domna 117 (ill. p. 56), BMCRE V 48, Sear RCV II 6592 (ill. p. 494); Foss, Julia Domna 209.9 (p. 174) [Clive Foss, Roman Historical Coins (Seaby, London, 1990)]. 18.5 mm., 3.61 g., 12 h. Retail purchase 11 Sep 2024 from cgb.fr (Compagnie Générale de Bourse), Paris, France; ex MDC Monaco (Monnaies de Collection), Auction 8, 9 Mar 2024, Lot 50; from 1926 Limoges Coin Hoard (with original coin ticket).** The cgb.fr photo: The photo accurately represents the coin's current appearance. It seems clear that cgb cleaned it after acquiring it at the MDC Monaco auction, in which it was described as having a "black patina" and was depicted in this photo: So the coin no longer has its former appearance, but the results don't bother me at all. The coin was also accompanied by this beautifully-handwritten old coin ticket, obviously dating back a long time: Can anyone explain the reference to what looks like "occo[???] page 282 ligne 10"? *David Sear dates this type to AD 205. (See Sear RCV II 6592 at p. 494.) But Foss asserts at pp. 173-174 that the title “MATER AVGG” -- with two “G’s,” meaning “Mother of the Augusti” -- was used by Julia Domna only after Geta was elevated from Caesar to Augustus in AD 209, joining his brother Caracalla. For the symbolism of Cybele, the “Great Mother,” driving a lion quadriga, see Ovid’s Fasti, Book IV, in the verses where Ovid asks the Muse Erato “Why do lions, these wild beasts, bowing their heads for the first time under the yoke, come to harness themselves to the chariot of the goddess?”, and she answers “It was Cybele who softened the ferocious manners of men; her chariot is a symbol of this benefit.” **For a description of the 1926 Limoges Hoard, see the website “Coin Hoards of the Roman Empire” at https://chre.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/hoard/3774: Hoard name LIMOGES 1926-1943 Alternative names AUGUSTORITUM; AVGVSTORITVM Date of discovery (from) 7 May 1926 (to) 1943 Total number of coins 7000 Summary The hoard comprised a jar [with two handles, placed in a small silo] containing more than 7,000 denarii and some radiates. Some contemporary reports suggest that there were as many as 12,000 coins. Hugon suggested that the gaps in types and paucity of the latest issues and the presence almost exclusively of denarii indicated that the hoard was sorted by type and denomination and that originally there may have been further jars. Indeed, in 1943, a further vessel containing 28 denarii was found at the same findspot and is considered to be part of the same hoard. Discovery method Building work Comment The hoard was found when digging the foundations for a gasworks on rue de Sainte-Madeleine. Coins Summary See table below. Coins of Julia Domna were the third most numerous in the hoard, after those of Caracalla and Septimius Severus. Imperial Antoninus Pius Antoninus Pius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Antoninus Pius Faustina II (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Marcus Aurelius (Augustus) Rome Denarius 6 Imperial Marcus Aurelius Lucilla (Augusta) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Commodus Commodus (Augustus) Rome Denarius 4 Imperial Pertinax Pertinax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 1 Imperial Clodius Albinus Clodius Albinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Septimius Severus Septimius Severus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 1463 Imperial Septimius Severus Julia Domna (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 1034 Imperial Septimius Severus Geta (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 680 Imperial Septimius Severus Plautilla (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 144 Imperial Caracalla Caracalla (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 2139 Imperial Macrinus Macrinus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 53 Imperial Macrinus Diadumenian (Caesar) Uncertain Denarius 7 Imperial Elagabalus Elagabalus (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 76 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Paula (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 13 Imperial Elagabalus Aquilia Severa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 3 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Soaemias (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 16 Imperial Elagabalus Julia Maesa (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 98 Imperial Severus Alexander Severus Alexander (Augustus) Uncertain Denarius 525 Imperial Severus Alexander Orbiana (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 2 Imperial Severus Alexander Julia Mamaea (Augusta) Uncertain Denarius 93 Imperial Maximinus I Thrax Maximinus I Thrax (Augustus) Rome Denarius 13 Imperial Balbinus and Pupienus Balbinus (Augustus) Rome Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Gordian III Gordian III (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Trebonianus Gallus Trebonianus Gallus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 Imperial Valerian I and Gallienus Valerian I (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 2 Imperial Postumus Postumus (Augustus) Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 The MDC Monaco auction in March 2024 from which cbg.fr apparently acquired this coin included 10 coins from the 1926 Limoges Hoard (Lots 46-55, of which this coin was Lot 50), all of them with the same black patina as shown in the photo above, and all accompanied by an old coin ticket like the one that came with mine. All sold for what I think were very low prices, six of the ten below $100. Perhaps cgb.fr saw the potential increase in resale value that cleaning might achieve, although I don't know how many they acquired. I have no information on how these specimens (or the handful of other examples from this hoard I was able to find on acsearch) reached the market, or on who has possessed them – or the rest of the hoard – over the last century. Please post anything you think is relevant. A very thrilling addition Donna! I too added a long sought after rarity from CGB last week ... and I'm pleased to see you did as well! Neat provenance too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Ancient Coin Hunter Posted September 17 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted September 17 Great find Donna. I've also been trolling vcoins for a specific type i've been looking for priced below $2500, most of them are above this threshold but now I see one for $1765 so I am very close to pulling the trigger. It's still for sale today but I won't reveal it because I don't want it to get snatched up. At this point I am trying to talk myself into pulling the trigger sooner than later.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted September 17 · Patron Share Posted September 17 ..very nice Donna...i got to bid on one one time many years ago but i didn't have enough money 🙂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted September 17 · Supporter Share Posted September 17 Fantastic coin @DonnaML! And what a great provenance, as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted September 17 · Member Share Posted September 17 Nice coin - it's a type that's on my wish list too. I do have the related MATER DEVM type. Here's a very large depiction of Cybele from the Met museum, which I assume you must have seen! 11 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtlart Posted September 17 · Member Share Posted September 17 Adolf Occo 1524-1606 (Imperatorum Romanorum numismata a Pompeio Magno. ad Heraclium)1730 publication of work looks like the edition referenced by page. Available on Internet Archive 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIF Posted September 17 · Supporter Share Posted September 17 Congratulations, Donna! What fantastic find! Love the iconography, love the provenance, love the ephemera 😍. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted September 17 · Supporter Share Posted September 17 What a fantastic job at cleaning! I've come to really like CGB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted September 17 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted September 17 (edited) That's a lovely coin, Donna. Wonderful examples posted! In my hit and miss (lots of miss) method of collecting, here's a denarius of Julia Domna that was purchased back in 2020, the same MATER DEVM type as the exquisite example posted by Heliodromus. What attracted me to this coin is the very nice expressive portrait of the empress. The apparent scratches on the obverse are actually on the surface of the slab. Edited September 17 by robinjojo 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted September 17 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted September 17 (edited) 15 hours ago, Al Kowsky said: The later date of 209 makes more sense, when Geta was given Augustus status. That certainly makes sense to me. On the other hand, @Roman Collector has always used the AD 205 date for this type, despite the MATER AVGG legend. And I trust his judgment! Perhaps he can comment on this issue? I'm very happy that all of you seem to like the coin, and that apparently nobody has a problem with the work CGB did to clean it. I'm a bit surprised that nobody tried that before, with either this specimen or the 9 others sold at auction in March of this year. The black patina was concededly rather attractive, but definitely obscured a lot of the details. Edited September 17 by DonnaML 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted September 17 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted September 17 (edited) 7 hours ago, jtlart said: Adolf Occo 1524-1606 (Imperatorum Romanorum numismata a Pompeio Magno. ad Heraclium)1730 publication of work looks like the edition referenced by page. Available on Internet Archive Thank you so much for this information. I admit that I had never heard of Adolf Occo's work before. It's rather odd that someone in the 20th century -- especially in France -- would have cited it as a reference, long after the publication of Henri Cohen's volumes in 1884. Here is a description of the 1683 edition of Occo, at the Dumbarton Oaks website. https://www.doaks.org/resources/online-exhibits/ces-pieces-immortelles/16th-century-b/imperatorum-romanorum-numismata-a-pompeio-magno-ad-heraclium "Adolf Occo (1524-1606). Imperatorum Romanorum Numismata a Pompeio Magno ad Heraclium. Milan: Ludovico Monti, 1683 (original edition 1579). Occo was a renowned physician in Augsburg, serving as dean of the medical college and knighted for his service by emperor Maximilian II in 1573. While studying medicine in Italy, Occo had developed a deep love of ancient coins. Based on his own collection of ancient coins and the larger collection of his friend Mark Fuegger, Occo published a study of coin types that became “one of the landmarks in the evolution of numismatics into a science.” The original edition, in 1579, was not illustrated but included brief descriptions of known types from late Roman Republican coins to those of the 7th-century Byzantine emperor Heraclius. Occo prepared a second, revised edition in 1601, also without illustrations. The 1683 edition, on display here, was prepared by Francesco Mezzabarba of Milan and was the first edition to include illustrations." Page 282, line 10 of the 1683 edition is, in fact, an accurate citation of the Cybele/Lion Quadriga type of Julia Domna (referred to by Occo as "Julia Severi"), counting each line of text separately: I have no idea of the meaning of the asterisk to the left of the description of this type and a number of others. Occo appears to refer to a museum in Denmark as holding an example of the type. The pagination remained the same in the 1730 edition of Occo's book, apparently the most recent one at the time someone created the ticket that came with my coin. The 1730 edition is available on Google Books; here's the title page: The introduction to the Julia Domna section, on p. 281: The relevant portion of p. 282; see line 10: The only other example I've found online of an old coin ticket for a specimen from the 1926 Limoges Hoard is in the same handwriting as mine, and also cites only Adolf Occo's work as a reference. It was depicted with a coin of Balbinus sold at auction by Olivier Goujon Numismatique in Paris on 20 Nov. 2018, for the sum of $454 -- about $150 more than I paid for my Julia Domna example, and 4 - 10 X more than any of the specimens sold by MD Monaco. If the Goujon specimen ever had a black patina like the examples sold by MDC Monaco, it had obviously been cleaned before this auction: The Olivier Goujon auction description said the following about the hoard: "This denier comes from the treasure of Limoges, discovered in 1926 by workers on the edge of the rue Sainte-Madeleine. An immense treasure composed almost entirely of deniers dated in the vast majority of the 3rd century. In total, 6393 coins were able to be gathered and studied before dispersion. The inventory indicates that, of all the coins studied, only one is attributed to Balbin." Unfortunately, I've found nothing more explaining when and how the hoard was dispersed. Perhaps the number "1" above and to the right of Balbinus's name on the Goujon coin ticket refers to the number of coins of that type in the Limoges hoard? If so, then perhaps the number "3" above and to the right of Julia Domna's name on my coin ticket might suggest that there were at least 3 examples of the lion quadriga type in the hoard? Edited September 17 by DonnaML 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted September 17 · Member Share Posted September 17 (edited) 18 hours ago, DonnaML said: Uncertain Antoninianus (radiate) 1 "Please post anything you think is relevant." Mine is a bit similar, but with a biga of horses rather than a quadriga of elephants. Same dark patina: Julia Domna, mother of Caracalla. AR Denarius (2.67 gm). Struck 211-215 AD. Obv: Draped bust right. Rev: Luna (or Diana), wearing crescent, cloak billowing about head, driving biga with galloping horses left. RIC IV 379c (Caracalla); RSC 105. Dark Tone. Small flan flaw on JD's lip Edited September 17 by PeteB 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted September 17 · Patron Share Posted September 17 2 hours ago, DonnaML said: That certainly makes sense to me. On the other hand, @Roman Collector has always used the AD 205 date for this type, despite the MATER AVGG legend. And I trust his judgment! Perhaps he can comment on this issue? I'm very happy that all of you seem to like the coin, and that apparently nobody has a problem with the work CGB did to clean it. I'm a bit surprised that nobody tried that before, with either this specimen or the 9 others sold at auction in March of this year. The black patina was concededly rather attractive, but definitely obscured a lot of the details. Thank you for the kind words, but I didn't research it in detail. I just went with David Sear (who went by Hill) and trusted him. 205 CE makes more sense. And now that I have an excuse to post mine again, I shall!! 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted September 18 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted September 18 (edited) 8 hours ago, Roman Collector said: 205 CE makes more sense. May I ask why? It seemed to me that 209 made more sense. But, as always, I'm very pleased to see your specimen again! Edited September 18 by DonnaML Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulla80 Posted September 18 · Supporter Share Posted September 18 Great to see the reference tracked down, @DonnaML! Here's my somewhat ugly version of this coin: 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted September 18 · Supporter Share Posted September 18 33 minutes ago, Sulla80 said: Great to see the reference tracked down, @DonnaML! Here's my somewhat ugly richly toned version of this coin: There, fixed it for you. 😉 Lovely coin! 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentinian Posted September 18 · Member Share Posted September 18 Here's mine. However, it lacks a fabulous provenance. 19-18 . 3.11 grams. ex Barry Murphy 2011, back when he had a vcoins store. Hill 759 "R2" "205". Sear II 6592 "205" BMC (SS & C) 48 "middle group, 199 or 200 to c. 207" Foss 9 "209" RIC 562 "scarce" only dated to the "198-211"period. 6 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted September 18 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted September 18 1 hour ago, Sulla80 said: Great to see the reference tracked down, @DonnaML! Here's my somewhat ugly version of this coin: Not the least bit ugly! I would have been happy to buy it if I'd ever seen it for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMonkeySwag96 Posted September 18 · Member Share Posted September 18 Probably one of the more interesting reverse types on Imperial denarii. It seems to be a throwback to a Republic denarius of M. Volteius depicting Cybele riding a lion biga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
July2017.thumb.jpg.4507a060de31470448cff1309ccca9b5.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.